The LORD said to My Lord

[ICHTHUS]

Lets not jump too fast to 'pre-conclusions' in the passage, since the writer is quoting Psalm 45 which is originally a wedding song probably of Solomon which simply recognizes and professes the truth that that human king's (a son of David) throne, is the throne of God, ....the word 'throne' here simply denoting the power, honor, authority and glory that 'God' has given the king (messiah). - there is no indication or proof in this 'psalm' that the Messiah is YHWH, neither is there any intention in the author of the original psalm to indicate divinity to anyone actually. Its just a wonderful psalm declaring the eternality of God's THRONE....his power, influence, authority ....that throne is a shared 'THRONE' of power and glory, which is Gods. He shares it with his Messiah as his anointed. Again, we consider the idea of 'agency'.

Even Psalm 102 quoted by the writer of Heb. 1 goes further to affirm the eternality of God's throne, while the the psalm is but a prayer of any afflicted soul who is promised salvation to those who turn and call upon the name of the Lord. There is no indication or proof that this prayer-psalm is claiming that the Messiah is YHWH, but we may say that it does AFFIRM that YHWH is enthroned forever......his sovereignty and glory is absolute and forever holds its ultimacy. - the Messiah's throne IS the same as God's throne,...that is the main theme here. - since God has exalted his Messiah, even the angels worship him, naturally and logically.......since YHWH represents and administers his power THRU his anointed one, YHWH being the messiahs 'throne', and vice-versily the Messiah's throne is YHWHs. 'God' alone gives the meaning, value and reality of his throne to his Messiah, because....it is one 'agency' and 'government'.

The passages quoted from the psalms make perfect sense in their 'original' contexts...a simple Unitarian one....and is only 'convoluted' in Hebrews 1 by various presuppositions and grammatical twists which can serve one's own theological or Christological bias. In any case,...only 'God' is 'God' forever, and the One 'God' and his Messiah share the same 'throne' of eternal power, that is the fundamental theme there. As we worship 'God' we worship also his 'Christ', for they are one. - details on Christology or creatorship may vary in certain schools, but the fundamentals of God's sovereignty and unity forever holds. The Messiah-Son shares the ministration of his Father-God's THRONE. - again, the devil may be in the details,....but the fundamentals/universals of the divine nature and will hold their integrity.

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Examining the Trinity (Heb. 1:8) - blog venue

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A comprehensive examination below -

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There is no doubt that Hebrews chapter one, is clear Testimony by God the Father, to Jesus Christ, as YHWH.

As I have said, in verse 6 the Father says WORSHIP Jesus

In verses 8-9, again the Father addresses Jesus as "Your Throne O God...therefore O God, Your God", as the correct Greek reads

In verses 10-12, the Father says that Jesus Christ DIRECTLY Created the entire universe

There is only opposition to this by those who refuse to accept what the Bible actually teaches about Jesus Christ, and try to impose their own heresies!

 

[ICHTHUS]

We are to honor both God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

that is NOT what John 5:23 is saying!

The context here is very important. In verse 17, Jesus tells the Jews, "But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work", showing that whatever He does, is exactly what the Father does. To which the Jews, who clearly understood what Jesus had said, reacted, "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God".

What was the crime here that Jesus had committed? He had made God to be His OWN Personal Father, and thereby making Himself equal with God the Father. The adjective ἴσον here is used for "equality of rights", which is only someone Who is Almighty God, could have said.

Now, after this, we have Jesus' Words in verse 23, note also the use of καθὼς, which is, "in the same way", that you HONOR the Father, you must HONOR Me. If you fail to HONOR Me, then you fail to HONOR the Father, Who sent Me. There is NO created being that can ever say, that they must have the SAME HONOR that is for Almighty God! It is like a citizen of any country, that says they should be HONORED exactly as the King or Queen are! They would be put in jail as a mad person!

Listen to what YHWH says in Isaiah 42:8, "I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols", where the Hebrew "kâbôwd", means "glory, honor" (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew Lexicon; also, Gesenius, Hebrew Lexicon).

Jesus Christ has to be the Eternal YHWH, for Him to say that all humans must HONOR Him EXACTLY as they HONOR the Father.

In fact, this is exactly what we read in Revelation 5:13-14

"And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To Him Who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!. And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.”

ALL BLESSING, HONOR, GLORY, MIGHT, is for Him Who sits on the Throne, AND to the Lamb, Jesus Christ! 100% COEQUAL!

Not only so, but BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER EQUALLY!

conclusive evidence from the Bible, that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, The Great I AM!

 

[shroom]

I have nothing further to say to you, as you continue to misrepresent what the Bible says.

You have yet to address the scriptures I posted.

You twist every Bible verse that clearly says that Jesus is GOD, like John 1:1

Jesus Christ isn't mentioned in John 1:1.

because of your warped "theology", you are probably a Jehovah's Witness, who have lied in the translation of the Bible, by corrupting Bible verses to support their deominc teachings!

I'm not a JW. They believe Jesus preexisted as Michael the archangel. He didn't. Jesus is a man, the Christ, a human being fathered BY God, approved BY God, anointed BY God, ordained BY God, raised from the dead BY God.

 

[shroom]

that is NOT what John 5:23 is saying!

The context here is very important. In verse 17, Jesus tells the Jews, "But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work", showing that whatever He does, is exactly what the Father does. To which the Jews, who clearly understood what Jesus had said, reacted, "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God".

What was the crime here that Jesus had committed? He had made God to be His OWN Personal Father, and thereby making Himself equal with God the Father. The adjective ἴσον here is used for "equality of rights", which is only someone Who is Almighty God, could have said.

Now, after this, we have Jesus' Words in verse 23, note also the use of καθὼς, which is, "in the same way", that you HONOR the Father, you must HONOR Me. If you fail to HONOR Me, then you fail to HONOR the Father, Who sent Me. There is NO created being that can ever say, that they must have the SAME HONOR that is for Almighty God! It is like a citizen of any country, that says they should be HONORED exactly as the King or Queen are! They would be put in jail as a mad person!

Listen to what YHWH says in Isaiah 42:8, "I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols", where the Hebrew "kâbôwd", means "glory, honor" (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew Lexicon; also, Gesenius, Hebrew Lexicon).

Jesus Christ has to be the Eternal YHWH, for Him to say that all humans must HONOR Him EXACTLY as they HONOR the Father.

In fact, this is exactly what we read in Revelation 5:13-14

"And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To Him Who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!. And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.”

ALL BLESSING, HONOR, GLORY, MIGHT, is for Him Who sits on the Throne, AND to the Lamb, Jesus Christ! 100% COEQUAL!

Not only so, but BOTH are WORSHIPPED TOGETHER EQUALLY!

conclusive evidence from the Bible, that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, The Great I AM!

So this wasn't true?

I have nothing further to say to you

 

[ICHTHUS]

You have yet to address the scriptures I posted.

Jesus Christ isn't mentioned in John 1:1.

I'm not a JW. They believe Jesus preexisted as Michael the archangel. He didn't. Jesus is a man, the Christ, a human being fathered BY God, approved BY God, anointed BY God, ordained BY God, raised from the dead BY God.

You must be one of the very FEW people who says that Jesus Christ is not in John 1:1!!!

So, when in verse 14 we read, "and THE WORD became flesh", WHO is this WORD, if not Jesus Christ?

1 John 1:1-3 is very clear, if you can accept what it says:

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life, for the Life was revealed, and we have seen it and bear witness, and show to you the everlasting Life, Who was with the Father and was revealed to us, that which we have seen and heard we declare unto you, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ

Revelation 19:13

He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is The Word of God

Jesus Christ IS The WORD.

 

[ICHTHUS]

You have yet to address the scriptures I posted.

Jesus Christ isn't mentioned in John 1:1.

I'm not a JW. They believe Jesus preexisted as Michael the archangel. He didn't. Jesus is a man, the Christ, a human being fathered BY God, approved BY God, anointed BY God, ordained BY God, raised from the dead BY God.

you fail to understand, that during His time on earth, the Bible says, "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone" Hebrews 2:9

In John 17:5, Jesus says of Himself

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed"

The same Glory that Jesus always had with the Father, is what He "emptied Himself" of, as we read in Philippians 2:7, so that He could during His time as the Servant, be "subject" to the Father, which Jesus stopped after He Ascended.

This is what the Bible teaches, and not "theology"!

 

[ICHTHUS]

So this wasn't true?

what is not true?

 

[Studyman]

“Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?” They said to him, “The son of David.”( Matthew 22:41-42). How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.” David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?” And the great throng heard him gladly.” (Mark 12:35-37). And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions” (Matthew 22:46)”

This is THE most Important question that any human being can ever be asked, “What do you think about the Christ?. The answer to this question will determine the eternal destiny of every human, depending on what their answer is. Who is Jesus Christ? To these Jews, Jesus says, “what do you think about The Messiah”, “Ho Christos” being the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew, “Mashiach”.

Jesus is not here denying that He is “The Son of David”, which means that His human line came from David. This is confirmed in the very first verse in the Gospel of Matthew. Those who heard Jesus preach, often called out to Him, “"Have mercy on us, Son of David!" (Matthew 9:27; 15:22; 20:30, etc). To which Jesus never objected. The Term, “The Son of David”, was known as a Title of the Messiah at this time, as we read in Matthew 12:23, “All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?”. And, “Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?” (John 7:42). These first century Jews knew what it meant by “The Son of David”.

In these passages in the Gospels, Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament Psalm 110.

“The LORD said to My Lord…”

It is clear from these passages, that Jesus Christ is here claiming for Himself, Absolute Deity, as Yahweh, and fully equal with God the Father.

This is where modern religious philosophy falls off the rails, as prophesied, in my view.

The Christ, the Rock of Israel, didn't come to earth as God. He was not Equal with God in the form of a man. He says so Himself.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Matt. 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

When was HE in the Form of God? Before or after HE came in the Flesh? Before of course.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

No longer in the Form of God.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore (Because of this) God (His Father who sent Him) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus always "yielded" Himself to God His Father who sent Him. All His power came from His Father who sent Him.

The Lord (God the Father) said to my Lord, (His Son, The Rock of Israel who created all things) "Sit at my right hand, until I (God the Father) put your (His Son, the Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) enemies under your (His Son, the Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) feet.”

John 14:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus did not say, suggest, or even imply that HE, as a man, was equal with God His Father. That is a religious philosophy of this world, in my view.

 

[ICHTHUS]

This is where modern religious philosophy falls off the rails, as prophesied, in my view.

The Christ, the Rock of Israel, didn't come to earth as God. He was not Equal with God in the form of a man. He says so Himself.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Matt. 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Phil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

When was HE in the Form of God? Before or after HE came in the Flesh? Before of course.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

No longer in the Form of God.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore (Because of this) God (His Father who sent Him) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus always "yielded" Himself to God His Father who sent Him. All His power came from His Father who sent Him.

The Lord (God the Father) said to my Lord, (His Son, The Rock of Israel who created all things) "Sit at my right hand, until I (God the Father) put your (His Son, the Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) enemies under your (His Son, the Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) feet.”

John 14:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus did not say, suggest, or even imply that HE, as a man, was equal with God His Father. That is a religious philosophy of this world, in my view.

Firstly, God cannot cease to be God. Jesus as the eternal God, coequal with the Father and Holy Spirit, from all eternity, and "the Word of God", Who Himself is God", the Bible says, that this same "Word of God", while remaining "God", "became flesh". (John 1:1, 14). Paul says this in the original reading of 1 Timothy 3:16, "GOD was manifested in the flesh", remaining God.

Jesus Christ could say as the God-Man, in His "humanity", "My Father is greater than I". And, yet at the same time, that "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30). By this He means, Unity of Power, Authority, Security, as He has just said in verses 28-29, "no one can pluck them out of My Hands...No one can pluck them out of My Father's Hands".

Again, while on earth, Jesus said that all must HONOR Him as they do the Father (John 5:23), which was when He was still walking on earth.

To say that Jesus Christ, while on earth, was not Almighty God, is demonic heresy, and from the pit of hell.

 

[Studyman]

Firstly, God cannot cease to be God.

Where does the Holy scriptures say this?

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The Christ, the Rock of Israel, became a Flesh and Blood human. Most religious people of this world don't really believe the Christ, who created all things, truly came in the Flesh. But the scriptures I posted certainly suggests HE did.

The Bible doesn't say the One True God, and HIS Son became Flesh and Blood. The Son says His Father Sent Him, He who was with HIS Father before the world was. .

Jesus the Christ, the Rock of Israel, told us Himself that the Father gave Him Commandment to "lay down His immortal life" for us all. And if HIS Father wouldn't have raised Him from the dead, HE would still be in the ground, just as Abraham is still in the ground.

God can not die, but man can, and Jesus did. At least according to the Holy Scriptures. Of course, if you have been convinced Jesus was God and not man, then HIS Death was a hoax, and His obedience was also a hoax, and God's Reward for HIM was not because HE was an obedient man, but because HE was born with a Silver Spoon, with powers no other human has ever had access to. Then HIS achievement was nothing, as a God can withstand anything. Although this implication is popular in the religions of this world, I don't prescribe to it. I believe the Christ, the Rock of Israel, became a man in all ways as me, including mortal.

1 Cor. 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Jesus as the eternal God, coequal with the Father and Holy Spirit, from all eternity, and "the Word of God", Who Himself is God", the Bible says, that this same "Word of God", while remaining "God", "became flesh". (John 1:1, 14). Paul says this in the original reading of 1 Timothy 3:16, "GOD was manifested in the flesh", remaining God.

Paul never said the Christ came to earth as God, and neither did Jesus. Religions of this world do, but not the Scriptures.

1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

There is nowhere that the Holy scriptures teach that the Christ, the Word of God, came to earth as God. Adding your own words may help justify a religious philosophy, but doesn't change the truth of Scriptures, in my view.

Jesus Christ could say as the God-Man, in His "humanity", "My Father is greater than I". And, yet at the same time, that "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30). By this He means, Unity of Power, Authority, Security, as He has just said in verses 28-29, "no one can pluck them out of My Hands...No one can pluck them out of My Father's Hands".

Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

This doesn't mean I become a woman.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

A true believer doesn't become God. Paul wasn't God simply because HE and God were on the same Page.

"Many" will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord". We need to listen to "Every Word" of Scripture, not popular religious philosophies of this world you and I were born into.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Being "ONE" with the Christ Jesus, doesn't make me the Christ Jesus.

Again, while on earth, Jesus said that all must HONOR Him as they do the Father (John 5:23), which was when He was still walking on earth.

To say that Jesus Christ, while on earth, was not Almighty God, is demonic heresy, and from the pit of hell.

The Pope and Constantine preach this, and their Protestant daughters also preach this.

But if I was to ask Jesus while HE was walking on Earth, "Are you Almighty God?". He tells us the answer if we are interested.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[ICHTHUS]

Where does the Holy scriptures say this?

John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The Christ, the Rock of Israel, became a Flesh and Blood human. Most religious people of this world don't really believe the Christ, who created all things, truly came in the Flesh. But the scriptures I posted certainly suggests HE did.

The Bible doesn't say the One True God, and HIS Son became Flesh and Blood. The Son says His Father Sent Him, He who was with HIS Father before the world was. .

Jesus the Christ, the Rock of Israel, told us Himself that the Father gave Him Commandment to "lay down His immortal life" for us all. And if HIS Father wouldn't have raised Him from the dead, HE would still be in the ground, just as Abraham is still in the ground.

God can not die, but man can, and Jesus did. At least according to the Holy Scriptures. Of course, if you have been convinced Jesus was God and not man, then HIS Death was a hoax, and His obedience was also a hoax, and God's Reward for HIM was not because HE was an obedient man, but because HE was born with a Silver Spoon, with powers no other human has ever had access to. Then HIS achievement was nothing, as a God can withstand anything. Although this implication is popular in the religions of this world, I don't prescribe to it. I believe the Christ, the Rock of Israel, became a man in all ways as me, including mortal.

1 Cor. 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.




Paul never said the Christ came to earth as God, and neither did Jesus. Religions of this world do, but not the Scriptures.

1 Tim. 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

There is nowhere that the Holy scriptures teach that the Christ, the Word of God, came to earth as God. Adding your own words may help justify a religious philosophy, but doesn't change the truth of Scriptures, in my view.




Gen. 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

This doesn't mean I become a woman.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

A true believer doesn't become God. Paul wasn't God simply because HE and God were on the same Page.

"Many" will say to me in that day, "Lord, Lord". We need to listen to "Every Word" of Scripture, not popular religious philosophies of this world you and I were born into.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Being "ONE" with the Christ Jesus, doesn't make me the Christ Jesus.




The Pope and Constantine preach this, and their Protestant daughters also preach this.

But if I was to ask Jesus while HE was walking on Earth, "Are you Almighty God?". He tells us the answer if we are interested.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

are you a Jehovah's Witness, or another who denies in the absolute, eternal Deity of Jesus Christ?

 

[Studyman]

are you a Jehovah's Witness, or another who denies in the absolute, eternal Deity of Jesus Christ?

No, I am a believer in what is written in the Holy Scriptures, not what the religious franchises of this world preach.