S
shroom
Guest
There is a logical explanation for every Trinitarian proof text: https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Hebrews/chapter1/8
Meanwhile, please explain how I misunderstand the verses I quoted above.
Meanwhile, please explain how I misunderstand the verses I quoted above.
I
ICHTHUS
Guest
Here is another. God the Father about Jesus
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Hebrews 1:6
I
ICHTHUS
Guest
And another God the Father speaking to Jesus as the Actual Creator of the universe
And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
Hebrews 1:10-12
Genesis 1.1 says
In the beginning God Created
I
ICHTHUS
Guest
Yet another. Jesus claims equal Honor to the Father. Only possible because Jesus is absolutely equal to the Father
that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 5:23
S
shroom
Guest
Yes, we are surely to worship Jesus Christ, but not as God. There is one God, the Father.
S
shroom
Guest
God never addresses Jesus Christ as the "Actual Creator of the Universe".
Try here: https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Hebrews/1/10
Are you going to explain how I am misunderstanding the verses I posted, or continue to throw Trinitarian proof texts at me?
S
shroom
Guest
We are to honor both God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Are you going to explain how I am misunderstanding the verses I posted, or continue to throw Trinitarian proof texts at me?
The words or concepts of the Trinity, the God-man, God the Son, 100% man and 100% God, fully man and fully God, Three Persons, etc are not in the Bible.
F
freelight
Guest
I dont see much support for that and have provided data showing otherwise. 'Adonai' usually refers to YHWH ('God' proper) and 'adoni' (lord, master) often refers to human lords, husbands, superiors or masters. - the vowel points associated with 'adon' do matter, hence is why ancient jewish scribes added them into the text for better clarification of the 'context' and 'meaning' therein. YHWH Alone is ONE,......the lord or 'messiah' of David, is just that.....the anointed of YHWH. 'God' is the sole unbegotten One,...all else is begotten or created
As noted earlier, verse 5 stands on its own as anyone who puts his trust in YHWH (the LORD), is said to have 'God' at his right hand, because 'God' is their support, power and protector/provider. Vers 5 is simply attesting to that,....this verse does not indicate or prove that David's 'lord' (adoni) is YHWH, because the Messiah is a human son of David, anointed by 'God' which makes him 'Messiah', NOT YHWH. - its pretty logical, and clearly rational. Only one presupposing and superimposing a 'belief' that the Messiah is YHWH will FORCE and TWIST the text to assume what you are, which makes it a questionable and unreasonable claim. One may use metaphysical gymnastics as typical to orthodox trinitarian antics, but this was not the original Unitarian/monotheistic view of the Jews, but a later 'christian' innovation of course.
'God' is ONE thru-out, in any case, for the SHEMA ever holds. - 'God' may have many names and forms of course in the greater universality of Deity and its ministrations. - therefore I dont hold a dogmatic view necessarily, but hold to first principles and the fundamental truth of the Singularity and unity of Deity. Only 'God' is 'God', while all else is an expression, manifestation, generation, creation, extension of 'God'.....for all that exists essentially is 'God' and his 'Creation', as 'God' is OMNIPRESENT. - all else are fun little details and dovetails in the cosmic playground.
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F
freelight
Guest
You may recognize that this is reading your belief into the text to support your own 'Christology' of course. There is plenty of bibical evidence to show that Jesus is not YHWH, over/against any so called proof texts that do. ALSO, there is no reason to assume/presume that Jesus is YHWH, so the burden of 'proof' is on the one claiming such. - its neither 'here' or 'there' really in the greater context of whats has real meaning or value anyways.....since it depends on ones perspective and comprehension of the will of God at any place or time, and in the context of eternity
Again, only 'God' is 'God', who is pure spirit, incorporeal, timeless, eternal, infinite, ultimate, absolute, almighty-supreme, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. - this universal fundamental reality is absolute always.....is just IS
I AM.....I Will Be.....past, present, future,....ever be-ing.....ever be-coming.....
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F
freelight
Guest
Lets not jump too fast to 'pre-conclusions' in the passage, since the writer is quoting Psalm 45 which is originally a wedding song probably of Solomon which simply recognizes and professes the truth that that human king's (a son of David) throne, is the throne of God, ....the word 'throne' here simply denoting the power, honor, authority and glory that 'God' has given the king (messiah). - there is no indication or proof in this 'psalm' that the Messiah is YHWH, neither is there any intention in the author of the original psalm to indicate divinity to anyone actually. Its just a wonderful psalm declaring the eternality of God's THRONE....his power, influence, authority ....that throne is a shared 'THRONE' of power and glory, which is Gods. He shares it with his Messiah as his anointed. Again, we consider the idea of 'agency'.
Even Psalm 102 quoted by the writer of Heb. 1 goes further to affirm the eternality of God's throne, while the the psalm is but a prayer of any afflicted soul who is promised salvation to those who turn and call upon the name of the Lord. There is no indication or proof that this prayer-psalm is claiming that the Messiah is YHWH, but we may say that it does AFFIRM that YHWH is enthroned forever......his sovereignty and glory is absolute and forever holds its ultimacy. - the Messiah's throne IS the same as God's throne,...that is the main theme here. - since God has exalted his Messiah, even the angels worship him, naturally and logically.......since YHWH represents and administers his power THRU his anointed one, YHWH being the messiahs 'throne', and vice-versily the Messiah's throne is YHWHs. 'God' alone gives the meaning, value and reality of his throne to his Messiah, because....it is one 'agency' and 'government'.
The passages quoted from the psalms make perfect sense in their 'original' contexts...a simple Unitarian one....and is only 'convoluted' in Hebrews 1 by various presuppositions and grammatical twists which can serve one's own theological or Christological bias. In any case,...only 'God' is 'God' forever, and the One 'God' and his Messiah share the same 'throne' of eternal power, that is the fundamental theme there. As we worship 'God' we worship also his 'Christ', for they are one. - details on Christology or creatorship may vary in certain schools, but the fundamentals of God's sovereignty and unity forever holds. The Messiah-Son shares the ministration of his Father-God's THRONE. - again, the devil may be in the details,....but the fundamentals/universals of the divine nature and will hold their integrity.
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Examining the Trinity (Heb. 1:8) - blog venue
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A comprehensive examination below -
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I
ICHTHUS
Guest
this is rubbish! the Bible does NOT contradict itself, unless a Liberal version! Jesus Christ IS YHWH, whether people on here like it, or can accept it, makes ZERO difference!
I
ICHTHUS
Guest
I have nothing further to say to you, as you continue to misrepresent what the Bible says. You twist every Bible verse that clearly says that Jesus is GOD, like John 1:1, because of your warped "theology", you are probably a Jehovah's Witness, who have lied in the translation of the Bible, by corrupting Bible verses to support their deominc teachings!