The LORD said to My Lord

[ICHTHUS]

When questioned-- "Where do you get your teaching, having never been educated?"


But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?” So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. “He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

why did you say "haha" to #9? where is the joke?

 

[Mr E]

why did you say "haha" to #9? where is the joke?

ummmm.... because I thought it was funny. If everything is so "clearly presented" as you purport-- why do you think it remains a matter of debate after millennia of study? ah.... but you've settled it here? Now that's funny! --I'll tell you what it is.... it's hubris.

 

[Mr E]

The original hebrew in Psalms 110:1 uses the tetragrammaton here (YHWH, the divine name, represented by all capitals 'LORD' in some english christian bibles) which is clearly seperate and distinct from the 'lord' (adoni) in the passage, so claiming these two are the same 'being' is illogical, besides nonsensical. This passage does not prove the 'lord' spoken of is YHWH himself, again....pretty absurd. - the psalm written by david or another writer is simply referring to his 'lord' , which in this case could be 'Abraham' or 'David' himself.....or a future yet to come 'Messiah' (note all the enemies of 'God' have yet to be defeated, and the universal reign of the Messiah is not yet, if we would go by the traditional signs presumed by Orthodox Judaism).

We would also reiterate, nowhere in the passage is the 'Messiah' said to be YHWH himself; for it is the word or oracle of YHWH which declares the psalmist's 'lord' to have victory over his enemies. The 'lord' or 'leader' of the psalmist serves in his role or function as Yahweh's anointed (whether human or angel), so he of course represents YHWH. A Unitarian perspective is very logical here if we take it literally and simply.

One can entertain or believe the Messiah to be in some way 'divine' but this passage is a pretty weak proof-text showing the Messiah's divinity (let alone there being some kind of 'Trinity' existing), for only 'God' is 'God' in the absolute and proper sense, while 'God' has many servants that he uses to fulfill his desires.

The Messiah or any messiah for that matter may serve at God's right hand, for a messiah serves as God's AGENT, in any context or office regarding God's activity and government in human affairs. The key here is 'agency', and YHWH shall accomplish such thru human vessels (or angels). - it is all by God's grace and empowering, as He is the only source for anything and everything. All of us have a place in this kingdom for we are his temple and the body of the 'Messiah' in the earth. It is by God's power and 'anointing' that he brings to pass his purposes, thru his anointed agents/agencies. - this is the key, we are instruments of His spirit, whether he accomplishes this thru a head or primary 'Messiah' figure, or thru a company of anointed ones, - we are all part of the 'Messiah', as the head cannot be seperate from the 'body' corporate, which includes all the individuals that make up the collective.

-----------o

Translations respecting the divine name (YHWH) as distinct from 'adoni' (lord) in the text -


A Psalm of David. The affirmation of Jehovah to my Lord: `Sit at My right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.' - YLT

A Psalm by David. Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet.” - WEB

Psalm of David. Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies [as] footstool of thy feet. - Darby

A Psalm of David. Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool. - ASV

Of David. A psalm. A declaration of Yahweh to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” - LEB

Jehovah said to my Lord the Messiah, “Rule as my regent—I will subdue your enemies and make them bow low before you.” - TLB

----------o

Excellent post @freelight.

“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

View: https://youtu.be/dqiD5T0h-Mc

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again ICHTHUS,

How can anyone not accept what the Bible very clearly Teaches, that there is more than One Person Who is called YHWH, which is the Name for Almighty God?

This is your final statement in post #9 and it summarises your position based on what you say in the earlier part of post #9, and also your OP post #1, and post #3 where you want a direct answer to your understanding of verse 5 which you use to superimpose on v1 to come up with the following translation of Psalm 110:1.

Verse one can be translated as “Yahweh says to my Yahweh”.

In order to arrive at this final destination you have made various statements, and quoted various authorities, and as far as verse 1 is concerned I suggest that we can agree on the following from the OP:

The Masoretes punctuate verse one: “Adoni”, which is the singular noun and singular suffix, literally, “my lord”, or “my Lord”. This can be used for God as well as humans.

Now your next step is your quoting various authorities to say that the original of verse 5 was Yahweh, and this was changed to Adonai. Now I have no trouble with this, and I checked another "authority" he also stated the same. So we are making some progress. Now where we differ is the following statement from post #9:

Psalm 110, verses 1 and 5 shows that there are TWO Persons Who are called YHWH

No, there is only one person here called YHWH. The following is an adjustment to verse 5 using Yahweh, and additions to define the two beings in verses 1-5:
Psalm 110:1–5 (KJV adjusted and expanded): 1 The LORD (Yahweh, God the Father) said unto my Lord (Jesus), Sit thou (Jesus) at my right hand, until I (Yahweh, God the Father) make thine (Jesus's) enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD (Yahweh, God the Father) shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou (Jesus) in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD (Yahweh, God the Father) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou (Jesus) art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The LORD (Yahweh, God the Father) at thy (Jesus) right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Yahweh in verse 5 is God the Father.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[freelight]

Verse 5 makes it very clear Who is “Adoni” is in verse 1. Here it reads:

“The Lord at your Right Hand”

Which is a further reference to “Adoni”, Who is at the Right Hand of “Yahweh”. In verse 5 the Hebrew word used in the greater majority of manuscripts, is “Adonay”, and not “Adoni”. “Adonay” is always used in the Old Testament for Almighty God, and never for any humans or heavenly beings. There are about 20 Hebrew Masoretic Text, that reads in verse 5, “Yahweh”. Either Name is that used for the Eternal, Unchanging, Self-Existing, God of the Holy Bible. And here it is clearly used for the Lord Jesus Christ!

Some, who cannot accept the fact, that Jesus Christ is here identified as Almighty God, have suggested that verse 5 does not mean what it actually says. As Dr Cheyen says in his Commentary:

“The description in vv. 2, 3 is resumed. The Lord is Jehovah (surely not the king), who is invisibly standing at His viceroy's right hand” (p.303)

Others try to read, “the Lord is at your Right Hand”, which is not in the Hebrew.

The “Yahweh” of verse 1, now changes places with “Adon”, and is on His Right Hand! This is no more than conjecture and the rejection of what the Bible plainly Teaches. There is NO Scripture passage that says that God the Father is at the Right Hand of Jesus Christ. What it does say in verse 5, is that the “Adon”, which some of the Masoretic manuscripts, by the Jews, read “Yahweh”, is COEQUAL with “Yahweh”. Verse one can be translated as “Yahweh says to my Yahweh”.

The passages in the Gospels, when read with Psalm 110, is one of the clearest and strongest, testimonies by The Lord Jesus Christ, on His Absolute Deity. These passages also show that the God of the Holy Bible is not “Unitarian”, as there are here TWO distinct “Persons” Who are EQUALLY Almighty God.

Hi ICHTHUS,

Continuing on with my former response to your commentary HERE,....lets address your 'claim' about verse 5 in the passage. There can only be one 'YHWH' and the second 'lord' spoken of, if it is the Messiah or a 'messiah', being rendered 'adoni'... almost always refers to a human master, lord, king, superior, ...not typically to YHWH, as YHWH is almost always referred to properly as 'Adonai' (the LORD/ YHWH). There is only ever One Supreme Deity, for YHWH is one alone, while all other lords or messiahs are subordinate to HIM. The 'shema' holds its primacy.

Judaism upholds the strictest and most orthodox form of Unitarian Monotheism. - all representatives of 'God' act as agents of 'God', so we brought up the principle of 'agency' earlier. The Jewish messiah traditionally is an anointed MAN of God, chosen and appointed as God's representative. There is no grounds to grant David's Son, of whom David calls 'my lord' any divinity whatsoever necessarily, much less to make this 'lord' into YHWH himself.

In both verses 1 and 5.......YHWH , the LORD (Adonai) stands clearly distinct as 'God', the one and only 'God'. YHWH himself is never the Messiah, - the Messiah is but his AGENT, an anointed servant.

1. The LORD (YHWH) said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

5. The LORD (YHWH) is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.

This human Messsiah, Davids Son.......has YHWH at his right hand, as that power giving him victory over his enemies. Having 'God' at your right hand dosen't make you 'God', it is a metaphor for having God's backing, power and authority to execute his judgments, perform his will. There is nothing in this passage that turns the Messiah into YHWH, since they are distinct from one another. - one 'represents' the other. YHWH alone is 'God' in the text, and if one believes the OT as divinely inspired, he is therefore 'God' alone in any context. - Only 'God' is 'God'

Other verses showing that YHWH stands at the Messiah's right hand, or in support of the poor (or anybody who trusts in YHWH) are as follows -

I have set the Lord always before me;
Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved. - Ps. 16:8

I will greatly praise the Lord with my mouth;
Yes, I will praise Him among the multitude.
For He shall stand at the right hand of the poor,
To save him from those [e]who condemn him. - Ps. 109:30,31

The Lord is your keeper;
The Lord is your shade at your right hand.
6 The sun shall not strike you by day,
Nor the moon by night. -Ps. 121:5

So verse 5 does not prove the Messiah is YHWH at all, in fact it proves the Messiah is the one who trusts in YHWH, so YHWH has put himself in support of his Messiah, to empower and uphold him! - The dual position of the Messiah at God's right hand, and YHWH at the Messiah's right hand, go "hand in hand" - nothing about this special relationship indicates or proves that the Messiah is somehow YHWH himself, if we would quibble over apples and oranges

All this fits perfectly within a traditional Unitarian context, with no complications or presuppositions of a 'Trinity' existing anywhere. - granted, I usually side towards Unitarianism in one form or another in traditional Christian Christology dialogue, although quite liberal philosophically and metaphysically exploring various trinitarian, gnostic or theosophical views of 'Christ' and in theology in general. - From a purely metaphysical perspective, there is greater 'wiggle room' and 'multi-dimensions' involved that may add more interesting deeper meaning and value to the subject,.....depends on what facets and contexts you're exploring.

Unitarian Monotheism however holds its primacy as most fundamental, pure in its singularity of One Deity ('The One'), while all else derives and emenates from that Infinite ONE. YHWH, the One Deity,....speaks, proclaims and decrees what creative and redemptive movements shall go forth and be accomplished THRU his ANOINTED and other 'agencies' serving The One. - this psalm especially shows the unique supremacy of YHWH and the subordinate position of David's 'lord' (adoni) who does the will of 'God'. - The Messiah is always one sent, anointed and appointed by 'God', one that is begotten and subordinate to Yah. - we would note that the unity and supremacy of 'God' is recognized within both unitarian and trinitarian theologies, of course.

Some basic videos below on the passage -

From Brother Kel -

 

[ICHTHUS]

Continuing on with my former response to your commentary HERE,....lets address your 'claim' about verse 5 in the passage. There can only be one 'YHWH' and the second 'lord' spoken of, if it is the Messiah or a 'messiah', being rendered 'adoni'... almost always refers to a human master, lord, king, superior, ...not typically to YHWH, as YHWH is almost always referred to properly as 'Adonai' (the LORD/ YHWH). There is only ever One Supreme Deity, for YHWH is one alone, while all other lords or messiahs are subordinate to HIM. The 'shema' holds its primacy.

firstly, as I have shown in detail in the OP, Adon/Adoni, etc, are also used for Almighty God, and is very much equivalent to YHWH when used for God.

The use of YHWH in verse 5, can only refer to Jesus Christ, Who is at the Right Hand of the Father, and never the other way around. Even when Stephen was being stoned, and looked up to heaven, he says, "I see Heaven opened and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:56). There is not a single place in the Bible, where God the Father is a Jesus' Right Hand. the only reason this suggestion is made for Psalm 110:5, is by those, like yourself, who cannot accept what the Bible clearly says about Jesus Christ, that He is YHWH, that the Father is YHWH, and the Holy Spirit is YHWH. Three distinct Persons, and One Godhead. YHWH cannot be subordinate to YHWH!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again ICHTHUS,

he use of YHWH in verse 5, can only refer to Jesus Christ, Who is at the Right Hand of the Father, and never the other way around.

Jesus is to be seated at the right hand of God until the time arrives for Jesus to be sent back to the earth to establish the Kingdom upon the earth.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Jesus will not only come to restore all things, he will receive the faithful and judge the wicked. God's power will be with Jesus (at his right hand) to accomplish this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ICHTHUS]

Greetings again ICHTHUS,

Jesus is to be seated at the right hand of God until the time arrives for Jesus to be sent back to the earth to establish the Kingdom upon the earth.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Jesus will not only come to restore all things, he will receive the faithful and judge the wicked. God's power will be with Jesus (at his right hand) to accomplish this.

Kind regards
Trevor

unbiblical nonsense!

 

[shroom]

unbiblical nonsense!

Did you read what Trevor wrote? What, specifically, do you disagree with?

 

[ICHTHUS]

Did you read what Trevor wrote? What, specifically, do you disagree with?

His continued trying to twist what the Bible ACTUALLY says, by inventing things that are not there! Instead of accepting that Jesus Christ is very clearly called YHWH in Psalm 110:5, which the Jewish Hebrew manuscripts say, people like Trevor will try to wrest with the Scripture, and introduce false reasons for how it reads.

In verse 1, and everywhere else in the Bible, Jesus Christ is at the Right Hand of God the Father. In verse 5, because the correct reading is YHWH, and it reads, "YHWH at your Right Hand", which is Jesus Christ, it is now being twisted to mean that the Father is at Jesus' Right Hand! This has nothing to do with what the verse actually says, but the personal "theology" of those who cannot accept that Jesus Christ IS ALMIGHTY GOD, 100% COEQUAL with God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit!

 

[shroom]

His continued trying to twist what the Bible ACTUALLY says, by inventing things that are not there! Instead of accepting that Jesus Christ is very clearly called YHWH in Psalm 110:5

Jesus is not called YHWH in Ps 110:5. Jesus isn't YHWH, he is the Son of YHWH.

which the Jewish Hebrew manuscripts say, people like Trevor will try to wrest with the Scripture, and introduce false reasons for how it reads.

In verse 1, and everywhere else in the Bible, Jesus Christ is at the Right Hand of God the Father.

Yes. Jesus Christ is at the right hand OF God.

In verse 5, because the correct reading is YHWH

The correct reading is not YHWH.

, and it reads, "YHWH at your Right Hand",

Try: "O almighty Lord, at your right hand is he who will shatter kings in the day of his wrath."

which is Jesus Christ, it is now being twisted to mean that the Father is at Jesus' Right Hand!

Nobody is suggesting that the Father is at Jesus' right hand.

This has nothing to do with what the verse actually says, but the personal "theology" of those who cannot accept that Jesus Christ IS ALMIGHTY GOD, 100% COEQUAL with God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit!

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The Bible does not teach that God is a Trinity.

 

[ICHTHUS]

Jesus is not called YHWH in Ps 110:5. Jesus isn't YHWH, he is the Son of YHWH.

Yes. Jesus Christ is at the right hand OF God.

The correct reading is not YHWH.

Try: "O almighty Lord, at your right hand is he who will shatter kings in the day of his wrath."

Nobody is suggesting that the Father is at Jesus' right hand.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The Bible does not teach that God is a Trinity.

John 1.1 is very clear that Jesus Christ is GOD

John 1.18 in the oldest textual evidence reads

God no one has see the Unique God

Two Persons Who are equally GOD

these are Bible facts