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Arial
Guest
Wrong.
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S
shroom
Guest
^^^ from the Calvinist perspective.Wrong.
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Arial
Guest
What is the Calvinist perspective? Present a real argument.^^^ from the Calvinist perspective.
S
shroom
Guest
That God predestined/predetermined who would be saved from the foundation of the earth.What is the Calvinist perspective? Present a real argument.
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Arial
Guest
To say that is the Calvinist view is a misnomer, for we first hear Paul say it. Eph 1:4-5 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will. That is simply one of the places Calvin saw this truth and believed it.That God predestined/predetermined who would be saved from the foundation of the earth.
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shroom
Guest
Calvin misunderstood Paul. Paul is talking about the Christian church, not individual believers. Nobody is predestined to salvation. God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). We are ambassadors for Christ, imploring people on his behalf to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20).To say that is the Calvinist view is a misnomer, for we first hear Paul say it. Eph 1:4-5 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will. That is simply one of the places Calvin saw this truth and believed it.
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patience
Guest
Because someone doesn't agree with your position, doesn't mean they don't know God.If you knew God the way you ought to know God by now, had you not been sidetracked by the presentation of a different God than the one portrayed in scripture, you would know that God's grace can only be effectual.
Makes plenty of sense to me! God's predetermined purpose/will - what He foreknows and has predestined is that those who believe, have faith/trust in Jesus Christ will be granted eternal life. . . . Did He not predetermine that His Son would bring about salvation? Did He not foreknow and predestine that those who have faith/trust in His Son would be saved? Did He not foreknow that through faith/trust in His Son, man would be reconciled back to Him? Does not salvation result in eternal life? All these things were in God's foreknowledge, in His predetermined will, His plan of salvation.How does it make any logical sense that foreknown and predestined mean that those who believe will have eternal life. Eternal life is what they are foreknown and predestined to. Eternal life is not what is prepredestinedI
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patience
Guest
US - collectively, the church. Or else Paul would have stated it this way: "even as He chose "you"; that "you" should be holy and blameless; He predestined "you" for adoption as a "son" . . . ."To say that is the Calvinist view is a misnomer, for we first hear Paul say it. Eph 1:4-5 even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will. That is simply one of the places Calvin saw this truth and believed it.
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Pipiripi
Guest
This is not happened yet my friend!! Resurrection take place when Jesus returns.Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you might already be familiar with all of scripture.
Until the resurrection you have not been born anew from corruptible to incorruptible.
1 Corinthians 15
(49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
The only person that has resurrected after Jesus was resurrected, are those written in Matthew 27:51-53. This people are not born again!!
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Arial
Guest
You cannot make that leap, and leap it is, to say how Paul would have worded his letter if he meant something else. The "us" are those who will read or hear the letter. Those who do believe. If he were writing to one person, you might expect him to say "You" but the fact that he says us simply means these are things that are true of believers. Believers are people. (It is as though one who does not believe in predestination of people reads that scripture and says, "Now how can I make this be saying something else. And then they do.) That is a no go, for we also have Romans 8:28-30; Acts 13:48; Titus 1:1;US - collectively, the church. Or else Paul would have stated it this way: "even as He chose "you"; that "you" should be holy and blameless; He predestined "you" for adoption as a "son" . . . ."
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Arial
Guest
That is a logical fallacy (I am liable to hammer on that term, til those who use them figure out they are using them) that weakens you position. It presents what I say as though I say it because someone disagrees with me. And that is far from the case. If someone does not know that whatever God does or gives is effective, including grace, they need to know something about God that they are missing. If you are also one who has fallen for the God is not sovereign farse, then you have been turned away from seeing God as He shows Himself to be in scripture. That is a pure d fact.Because someone doesn't agree with your position, doesn't mean they don't know God.
Yes God foreordained all those things. It is called the covenant of redemption. That is not the issue. The issue is does the Bible tell us that the elect are people who God predestines to salvation. The answer is yes, it does. I gave you some scriptures in my last post. We also have Jesus saying that all those the Father gives Him will come to Him. And that they were the Father's and the Father gave them to Him.Makes plenty of sense to me! God's predetermined purpose/will - what He foreknows and has predestined is that those who believe, have faith/trust in Jesus Christ will be granted eternal life. . . . Did He not predetermine that His Son would bring about salvation? Did He not foreknow and predestine that those who have faith/trust in His Son would be saved? Did He not foreknow that through faith/trust in His Son, man would be reconciled back to Him? Does not salvation result in eternal life? All these things were in God's foreknowledge, in His predetermined will, His plan of salvation.
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Arial
Guest
"Calvin misunderstood Paul. Paul is talking about the Christian church, not individual believers." This is a logical fallacy. You give nothing to support that assumption with, other than your predetermined starting point---free will, which also isn't proven. The church is made up of people, it is the people who are the "us".Calvin misunderstood Paul. Paul is talking about the Christian church, not individual believers. Nobody is predestined to salvation. God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). We are ambassadors for Christ, imploring people on his behalf to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20).
"Nobody is predestined to salvation," Logical fallacy. You are using yourself as the authority for that statement.
1 Tim has already been discussed and you dismiss what I say without any proof that I am wrong.
2 Cor 5:20
Yes that is who we are and what we do.
Romans 6:28-30; Acts 13:48 Eph. 1:11