What to be born again for

[Arial]

No, I use the Bible. You unfortunately dismiss the scriptures I use.

I have never dismissed them, but have shown you another way to understand them, which you dismiss.

For you, because of what you believe, it cannot possibly mean that God wants all people to be saved, so you come up with alternatives. "It could mean all 'types' of people," or "it could mean God wants all people He determined would be saved to be saved."

The passage itself lends it to be referring to all types of people, "all men, for kings and all who are in authority"

But you don't actually believe it. For you, what we say or what we do has zero impact on a person's salvation. For you, it's all God. He's the one who spiritually births people, enabling them to believe, and because God's grace is "effectual," they will believe, whether we say anything to them or not.

I see you did not actually "hear" when you listened to the video on Predestination and election. This very thing is discussed. But it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out, from the predestination view, why we are to preach the gospel. Just basic common sense. First Jesus tells us to. Second "Faith comes by hearing the gospel." A person cannot believe something they have not heard, salvation is by grace through faith. The faith is in Jesus' vicarious work on our behalf. You can't possibly believe that unless you first hear it.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Scholars are divided as to the correct translation and interpretation of the Greek, and that division is usually based on their theology and the way they approach the text. https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Acts/13/48

Later. But this is the way most people who find things in the Bible they don't like, (and they must be obvious or they wouldn't know they didn't like them) go about not having to believe what they don't want to believe. They do the dance of languages and grammar.Rather than simply believe God and accept what they see. (If they didn't see it, they would not feel the need to change it,)

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"We" = the church.

Individuals is what make the church. The church doesn't make individuals. Whatever is true of the church, must first be true of the individual. "We" are the individuals in the church. God dis not ordain the church and then put people in it. He ordained people to be His church.

 

[Arial]

The problem is that you think "traditional Christianity" has everything right, or your misunderstanding/misconception of what first-century Christianity believed.

I trust God on that just as much as I trust the Bible to be His word.

 

[shroom]

I have never dismissed them, but have shown you another way to understand them, which you dismiss.

Just as you do with the "problem" scriptures for your theology.

The passage itself lends it to be referring to all types of people, "all men, for kings and all who are in authority"

See?

I see you did not actually "hear" when you listened to the video on Predestination and election. This very thing is discussed. But it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out, from the predestination view, why we are to preach the gospel. Just basic common sense. First Jesus tells us to. Second "Faith comes by hearing the gospel." A person cannot believe something they have not heard, salvation is by grace through faith. The faith is in Jesus' vicarious work on our behalf. You can't possibly believe that unless you first hear it.

I agree with that part.

Later. But this is the way most people who find things in the Bible they don't like, (and they must be obvious or they wouldn't know they didn't like them) go about not having to believe what they don't want to believe. They do the dance of languages and grammar.Rather than simply believe God and accept what they see. (If they didn't see it, they would not feel the need to change it,)

Which is exactly what you do with 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9, and more.

Individuals is what make the church. The church doesn't make individuals. Whatever is true of the church, must first be true of the individual. "We" are the individuals in the church. God dis not ordain the church and then put people in it. He ordained people to be His church.

God fore-ordained Christianity, not individual Christians.

 

[patience]

Here we go again resorting to a grammar lesson. Is an "us" made up of individuals, and therefore what is being said to "us" apply to them as individuals? That passage never mentions "church". It is talking to people about people. He is talking about what each individual has from Christ. The body is made up of individual members. What is true for the body, is true for the individual. It is only when one is building a theology based on the starting point of coming against another theology that is established in traditional Christianity, that it becomes necessary to find an interpretation of that scripture and all such scriptures, that aligns to the preconceived notion.

There is no need to continue with the back and forth. We already did it once before concerning this same scripture, and it has gone far enough now. You and Shroom can have a conversation between yourselves about it.

Grammar is used for a reason. Understanding grammar helps in understanding the structure within a sentence and I believe strengthens the substance of what is being said. I don't and can't "build a theology based on the starting point of coming against another theology" by the common usage of grammar - it is the way language works.

Thanks.

 

[shroom]

I trust God on that just as much as I trust the Bible to be His word.

God says He wants everyone to be saved. Jesus Christ said he is a man and that his Father is the only true God. Paul said that Jesus is a man and that for us there is but one God, the Father.

 

[Pipiripi]

God says He wants everyone to be saved. Jesus Christ said he is a man and that his Father is the only true God. Paul said that Jesus is a man and that for us there is but one God, the Father.

AND "ONE" MEDIATOR BETWEEN MAN AND GOD, "JESUS CHRIST" THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

I wish one day that you all can read only through the Bible alone, and burn yours plucking verses books !!

 

[shroom]

AND "ONE" MEDIATOR BETWEEN MAN AND GOD, "JESUS CHRIST" THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

Here is how the verse reads, Pip.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I wish one day that you all can read only through the Bible alone, and burn yours plucking verses books !!

The verse above is the Bible alone.

 

[Arial]

God says He wants everyone to be saved. Jesus Christ said he is a man and that his Father is the only true God. Paul said that Jesus is a man and that for us there is but one God, the Father.

That is your interpretation of His word, based on what you already decided to believe. You did decide to believe that, but you do not believe what God says as established by traditional Christianity. And it is God who sets the boundaries, it is God who established His true church and true doctrine, it is God who made sure, through the means of men and the direction of the Holy Spirit, to keep the foundation solid. This He did, and does, everytime men stray from it through their desires and human wisdom. If He did not, we would have no true plumb line by which to recognize the wolves in sheeps clothing, no method of discernment, no way of knowing what absolute truth is. And He is doing that even now with the reestablishment of and resurgence of (resurrection even) of the murdered reformed teaching. Just as He did in the Reformation. I know you do not believe this, but what you believe and don't believe is irrelevant. God oversees the building of His own church and His own people. You can dismiss it, and you will, by projecting and accusing what I say as being the same thing all men say who disagree with the foundational doctrines of traditional Christianity, including you, which amounts to "Truth is relative." And for you it will be.

 

[Arial]

Grammar is used for a reason. Understanding grammar helps in understanding the structure within a sentence and I believe strengthens the substance of what is being said. I don't and can't "build a theology based on the starting point of coming against another theology" by the common usage of grammar - it is the way language works.

Thanks.

You are coming against Reformed theology and traditional Christianity. Grammar carried to the extreme's or isolated, usages is just one way in which it is done. There is nothing incorrect in how I defined the usage of "us" (or applied it) in that passage.

 

[shroom]

That is your interpretation of His word, based on what you already decided to believe.

It's what the verses actually say.

You did decide to believe that,

Yes.

but you do not believe what God says as established by traditional Christianity.

God did not say what traditional Christianity thinks He said.

And it is God who sets the boundaries, it is God who established His true church and true doctrine,

Agreed!

it is God who made sure, through the means of men and the direction of the Holy Spirit, to keep the foundation solid. This He did, and does, everytime men stray from it through their desires and human wisdom.

You put far too much faith in what men say that God said.

If He did not, we would have no true plumb line by which to recognize the wolves in sheeps clothing, no method of discernment, no way of knowing what absolute truth is.

The true plumb line is the Bible.

And He is doing that even now with the reestablishment of and resurgence of (resurrection even) of the murdered reformed teaching. Just as He did in the Reformation. I know you do not believe this, but what you believe and don't believe is irrelevant.

And what you believe and don't believe concerning Reformed theology is irrelevant.

God oversees the building of His own church and His own people. You can dismiss it, and you will, by projecting and accusing what I say as being the same thing all men say who disagree with the foundational doctrines of traditional Christianity, including you, which amounts to "Truth is relative." And for you it will be.

Truth is not relative. The Bible is the Truth. What I dismiss is your understanding of the Bible.

 

[Arial]

Just as you do with the "problem" scriptures for your theology.

I don't have any problem scriptures in my theology.

See?

So you do see it but say it was meaningless that Paul would specify types of people after he said "all men."

I agree with that part.

Then why did you say what you did? That the teaching of predestination makes preaching the gospel unnecessary.

Which is exactly what you do with 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9, and more.

No it isn't. I use the whole counsel of God to arrive at my view. Your position perverts a high percentage of the whole counsel of God in order to have it agree with your starting desire. And calls that the whole counsel of God.

God fore-ordained Christianity, not individual Christians.

That is not what the Bible says. It is what you make it say so you don't have to believe what it says. All is meant to be for the glory of God. Base line---which view, the view of traditional Christianity or the view of unitarianism and open theism, gives all the glory to God, and which reduces God to being confused into His Creation, rather than over all His creation?

 

[Arial]

It's what the verses actually say.

According to your interpretation of it, which starts with free will as its premise, rather than the sovereignty of God. It starts with man, not God. And it starts by being opposed to traditional Christianity.

God did not say what traditional Christianity thinks He said.

And you know this how? It shows you have no faith in God to preserve truth in the establishment, by His hand, through the means of men, (just as He did with the writing and canonization of the Bible itself), of a "creed" so to speak, that preserves the integrity of apostolic teaching.

You put far too much faith in what men say that God said.

I put no faith in what men say. My faith is in the faithfulness of God to use men (the means!)

The true plumb line is the Bible.

And it is from the Bible that all the doctrines of traditional Christianity come, under the guidance and light of the Holy Spirit. God establishing for us the true plumbline. Otherwise all we have, is what opponents always use. "I follow the Bible!" Yet so does traditional Christianity. Without God establishing the plumb line as to what HE MEANS in scripture, there is no basis for the claims of anyone.

And what you believe and don't believe concerning Reformed theology is irrelevant.

I didn't say it was relevant. I do not speak of it as what I believe, but what it IS.

Truth is not relative. The Bible is the Truth. What I dismiss is your understanding of the Bible.

It is not my understanding of the Bible that I promote. Your statement "the Bible is the truth," is empty if you or anyone bases there opinion of what it says by what they think it says. What God means when He says it is what counts. In order for His people not to be blown about by these claims He established, after that long dark period known as the dark ages, once and for all, a true pattern of His self revelation, and His meaning, that we have to adhere to. Traditional Christianity as defined by its explained doctrines, is not a conglomerate of the doctrines of men, as many like to claim. It is the very grace of God, overseen by Him, to restore solid ground that was lost over the years following the apostolic age. That was lost for the very reason it is again lost in many ways and many places. By people who want to change it for their own reasons. By human wisdom. and fallen desires. Any religion or doctrine that is seeking to change traditional Christian doctrine, should be a large red flag to anyone. Unfortunately it is not.