M
meshak
Guest
And you don't understand what He is saying.
not only that, you go against what He says.
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not only that, you go against what He says.
7
7thMoon
Guest
Interesting, but you don't know what the word saved means. It means rescued from death. Imagine being having healed of tuberculosis in that century. That is what being saved means. Who can be saved meant who will survive Rome's Invasion? It wasn't the rich, because God was and is good.john 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
G
Grace Accepted
Guest
You must live in an alternate universe.Interesting, but you don't know what the word saved means. It means rescued from death. Imagine being having healed of tuberculosis in that century. That is what being saved means. Who can be saved meant who will survive Rome's Invasion? It wasn't the rich, because God was and is good.
I
ICHTHUS
Guest
Hebrews Chapter 1, verses 8 and 9:
“But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore O God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions”
This passage is the clearest Testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, as attested to by God the Father. It is for this very reason, why it has been under attack, on how it should really read. The verse begins, “προς δε”, where the preposition has the meaning of, “in reference to”; as it does in verse 7, when used for the created angels. “but, in reference to THE Son (τον υιον)…”
How are we to understand the words, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”? Is “ο θεος” here to be understood as the predicate, in the nominative, which could then give the reading, “Your throne is God”. Or, where the nominative is used for the vocative, in direct address, as in most Versions, “Your throne O God”? If this read, “ο θρονος σου ο κύριος”, “your throne O Lord”. There would be no dispute as to how it should read, and everyone would accept that it is in the vocative, as a direct address by the Father to Jesus Christ. Because we here have Jesus Christ as “ο θεος”, literally, “THE GOD”, that there are objections.
The oldest Greek manuscript for this passage, the Papyri P46, about 200 AD, has an interesting reading for verse 8. Instead of “βασιλειας σου” (your Kingdom), this manuscript, along with the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (4th century), read, “βασιλειας αὐτοῦ” (His Kingdom). Which is a change in the pronoun, from the 2nd to the 3rd person, which here refers to “the Son”, and His Kingdom. This reading has no textual support in any manuscripts or Versions of the Old Testament, from where this passage is taken. However, it does confirm that we are to understand the words in the vocative, as a direct address to Jesus Christ, by God the Father.
Almost all of the English Versions of the Bible, read the vocative, https://biblehub.com/parallel/hebrews/1-8.htm, though this can be seen as “biased”, as they do believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ.
The Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, made from the Hebrew before the time Jesus Christ was Born, reads, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”. The three English editions, by Brenton, Thomson, and Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G. Wright, also read: “your throne O God”. The Latin Vulgate by Jerome, made from the Hebrew, reads, “Sedes tua Deus in sæculum sæculi”, which is in the vocative, “your throne O God, is forever and ever”. Likewise the Syriac Peshitta Version, made in the 2nd century, also from the Hebrew, where it reads, “Thy throne, O God”. Also vocative.
There are many instances in the Septuagint, where the nominative is used for the vocative, as it is in Attic Greek, from which we the Koine Greek, which is what the New Testament is written in.
A very good example is in John 20:28, where Thomas says to Jesus: “ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου” (my Lord and my God), which is in the nominative, used as an address (ειπεν αυτω, said to Him) so taking the place of the vocative.
It is important that we look at the evidence, from those who do not regard Jesus Christ as Almighty God, which is what this passage in context, clearly teaches.
These words in Hebrews 1, are taken from Psalm 45:6-7, which is a Prophecy of the Coming Messiah. In the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).
The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163). It is clear, that as early as the 2nd century, the Hebrew was understood as the vocative, and not the nominative. The 11th century French Rabbi, Shlomo Yitzchaki, also known as Rashi, in his comments on this verse, renders it, “Your throne, O judge: Your throne, O prince and judge, shall exist forever and ever” (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/showrashi/true)
In verse 9, the words, “ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου”, is also in the vocative, and should read: “O God, your God”. This is how it was understood in the Greek Old Testament by Symmachus, published in the latter half of the 2nd century. (see, Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges). In this verse also Aquila uses the vocative, θεέ. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)
The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He would have denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, yet it is clear from his own translation, that God the Father here calls Jesus Christ, GOD. In John 1:1, this version reads, “and the Word was God”. And, in John 1:18, “No one hath ever seen God; the only begotten God”. Clear references to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by a Unitarian!
Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.
“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)
The evidence is clear, that the early Jewish scholars, understood the words in Psalm 45:6-7, as referring to the Coming Messiah, and rendered the Hebrew as vocative as a direct address. This means that it can only read, "Your Throne O God...O God, Your God", where the Father addresses Jesus Christ as GOD, and that there are TWO distinct Persons Who are GOD.
“But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore O God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions”
This passage is the clearest Testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, as attested to by God the Father. It is for this very reason, why it has been under attack, on how it should really read. The verse begins, “προς δε”, where the preposition has the meaning of, “in reference to”; as it does in verse 7, when used for the created angels. “but, in reference to THE Son (τον υιον)…”
How are we to understand the words, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”? Is “ο θεος” here to be understood as the predicate, in the nominative, which could then give the reading, “Your throne is God”. Or, where the nominative is used for the vocative, in direct address, as in most Versions, “Your throne O God”? If this read, “ο θρονος σου ο κύριος”, “your throne O Lord”. There would be no dispute as to how it should read, and everyone would accept that it is in the vocative, as a direct address by the Father to Jesus Christ. Because we here have Jesus Christ as “ο θεος”, literally, “THE GOD”, that there are objections.
The oldest Greek manuscript for this passage, the Papyri P46, about 200 AD, has an interesting reading for verse 8. Instead of “βασιλειας σου” (your Kingdom), this manuscript, along with the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (4th century), read, “βασιλειας αὐτοῦ” (His Kingdom). Which is a change in the pronoun, from the 2nd to the 3rd person, which here refers to “the Son”, and His Kingdom. This reading has no textual support in any manuscripts or Versions of the Old Testament, from where this passage is taken. However, it does confirm that we are to understand the words in the vocative, as a direct address to Jesus Christ, by God the Father.
Almost all of the English Versions of the Bible, read the vocative, https://biblehub.com/parallel/hebrews/1-8.htm, though this can be seen as “biased”, as they do believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ.
The Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, made from the Hebrew before the time Jesus Christ was Born, reads, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”. The three English editions, by Brenton, Thomson, and Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G. Wright, also read: “your throne O God”. The Latin Vulgate by Jerome, made from the Hebrew, reads, “Sedes tua Deus in sæculum sæculi”, which is in the vocative, “your throne O God, is forever and ever”. Likewise the Syriac Peshitta Version, made in the 2nd century, also from the Hebrew, where it reads, “Thy throne, O God”. Also vocative.
There are many instances in the Septuagint, where the nominative is used for the vocative, as it is in Attic Greek, from which we the Koine Greek, which is what the New Testament is written in.
A very good example is in John 20:28, where Thomas says to Jesus: “ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου” (my Lord and my God), which is in the nominative, used as an address (ειπεν αυτω, said to Him) so taking the place of the vocative.
It is important that we look at the evidence, from those who do not regard Jesus Christ as Almighty God, which is what this passage in context, clearly teaches.
These words in Hebrews 1, are taken from Psalm 45:6-7, which is a Prophecy of the Coming Messiah. In the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).
The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163). It is clear, that as early as the 2nd century, the Hebrew was understood as the vocative, and not the nominative. The 11th century French Rabbi, Shlomo Yitzchaki, also known as Rashi, in his comments on this verse, renders it, “Your throne, O judge: Your throne, O prince and judge, shall exist forever and ever” (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/showrashi/true)
In verse 9, the words, “ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου”, is also in the vocative, and should read: “O God, your God”. This is how it was understood in the Greek Old Testament by Symmachus, published in the latter half of the 2nd century. (see, Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges). In this verse also Aquila uses the vocative, θεέ. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)
The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He would have denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, yet it is clear from his own translation, that God the Father here calls Jesus Christ, GOD. In John 1:1, this version reads, “and the Word was God”. And, in John 1:18, “No one hath ever seen God; the only begotten God”. Clear references to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by a Unitarian!
Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.
“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)
The evidence is clear, that the early Jewish scholars, understood the words in Psalm 45:6-7, as referring to the Coming Messiah, and rendered the Hebrew as vocative as a direct address. This means that it can only read, "Your Throne O God...O God, Your God", where the Father addresses Jesus Christ as GOD, and that there are TWO distinct Persons Who are GOD.
7
7thMoon
Guest
Israel was saved from Egypt killing them. Enoch was translated; it does not Enoch was saved. You are living in alternate universe where salvation is based on belief rather than medical condition.You must live in an alternate universe.
7
7thMoon
Guest
Again, your throne God is into an age of ages Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεός εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνοςHebrews Chapter 1, verses 8 and 9:
“But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore O God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions”
Actually, the proof would be that God is the scepter; and even then it reminds me of a magic wand.This passage is the clearest Testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, as attested to by God the Father. It is for this very reason, why it has been under attack, on how it should really read. The verse begins, “προς δε”, where the preposition has the meaning of, “in reference to”; as it does in verse 7, when used for the created angels. “but, in reference to THE Son (τον υιον)…”
Gibberish. Kurios would not have the indefinite article omnicron. It would also mean also a human lord could have been the throne.How are we to understand the words, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”? Is “ο θεος” here to be understood as the predicate, in the nominative, which could then give the reading, “Your throne is God”. Or, where the nominative is used for the vocative, in direct address, as in most Versions, “Your throne O God”? If this read, “ο θρονος σου ο κύριος”, “your throne O Lord”. There would be no dispute as to how it should read, and everyone would accept that it is in the vocative, as a direct address by the Father to Jesus Christ. Because we here have Jesus Christ as “ο θεος”, literally, “THE GOD”, that there are objections.
The ink is probably newer than the carbon-date on that one. Just because a plagiarist made a mental slip, am I supposed to agree with him?The oldest Greek manuscript for this passage, the Papyri P46, about 200 AD, has an interesting reading for verse 8. Instead of “βασιλειας σου” (your Kingdom), this manuscript, along with the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (4th century), read, “βασιλειας αὐτοῦ” (His Kingdom). Which is a change in the pronoun, from the 2nd to the 3rd person, which here refers to “the Son”, and His Kingdom. This reading has no textual support in any manuscripts or Versions of the Old Testament, from where this passage is taken. However, it does confirm that we are to understand the words in the vocative, as a direct address to Jesus Christ, by God the Father.
Considering amateurs like you translate the bible, I don't think I agree that they are biased to towards anything except bad interpretations like yours which think the greek article ο is definitive even though it rarely follows proper names of people.Almost all of the English Versions of the Bible, read the vocative, https://biblehub.com/parallel/hebrews/1-8.htm, though this can be seen as “biased”, as they do believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ.
It is nominative and number. The Greek Vocative is neither singular nor plural. Unless you can prove the vocative is the dual, I am right, but it wouldn't still help your case, because then the vocative could be used anywhere, and it isn't anything other than an interjection.A very good example is in John 20:28, where Thomas says to Jesus: “ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου” (my Lord and my God), which is in the nominative, used as an address (ειπεν αυτω, said to Him) so taking the place of the vocative.
There is no vocative in Hebrew or Aramaic. And Aquila used questionable Greek syntax.These words in Hebrews 1, are taken from Psalm 45:6-7, which is a Prophecy of the Coming Messiah. In the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).
You are also off topic, and most importantly spamming the thread.... Quotes a bunch of amateurs in the field of Greek...
G
Grace Accepted
Guest
I guess I do live on an alternate universe than yours. You are aware of how strange your interpretation of the bible is. I have never meet one like you. You are unique.Israel was saved from Egypt killing them. Enoch was translated; it does not Enoch was saved. You are living in alternate universe where salvation is based on belief rather than medical condition.
A
Arial
Guest
If that is true, wouldn't it be your Christly duty to give us this understanding? What does it mean when Jesus says, "I am the Gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved."And you don't understand what He is saying.
M
meshak
Guest
I have been but you guys disregard them.If that is true, wouldn't it be your Christly duty to give us this understanding? What does it mean when Jesus says, "I am the Gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved."
A
Arial
Guest
I have not been reading everything you write. So please, if you would, tell me the meaning.I have been but you guys disregard them.
G
Grace Accepted
Guest
I showed you Jesus' words and you still stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it.And you don't understand what He is saying.
not only that, you go against what He says.
M
meshak
Guest
No you did not.I showed you Jesus' words and you still stubbornly refuse to acknowledge it.
You dont quote Jesus to prove your case.