M
Mattathias
Guest
And from that you draw the conclusion that the second coming of Jesus occurred in 70 AD?
Are you certain that Jerusalem will not be compassed with armies and made desolate again in the future?
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And from that you draw the conclusion that the second coming of Jesus occurred in 70 AD?
Are you certain that Jerusalem will not be compassed with armies and made desolate again in the future?
S
Sissy
Guest
I'll put that whole chapter in the spoiler below.Josephus wrote of Angels and chariots in the clouds as well as voices and strange events happening at the time Eleazar, son of Ananias the high priest, took over the Temple and used it for a fort against the Romans.
Come 70 AD, watch ya reckon happened to him?
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 3 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord [the eastern gate] about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
So I'm not sure how you think that it was signs and wonders done by any of the roman emperors like Titus, Nero, etc.
(None of those guys claim all of that was caused by them.)
Nor is it a time when the faithful are gathered to Jesus at His coming.
B
Bladerunner
Guest
My friend,, you seem to think that History does not could...There is History written outside of the Catholic Papcy. By all Historical (not Catholic) records, John wrote Revelation around 96AD....Peter and John were just about inseparable.
So when Paul went and stayed with Peter 15 days after his time in Damascus and Arabia, where was John?
Let's think about it.
Herod Antipas killed John's brother, James.
Since it was custom not to cutoff an Israelite's bloodline, (Zebedee) I reckon that was when John was banished to Patmos.
When Paul went back 14 years later, John was there.
I reckon Agrippa II let him loose sometime later.
As you can see I'm offering a different time line for the writing of Revelation.
All you have to go on is Catholic traditions which in my opinion are sorely lacking in the face of actual scriptural evidence.
Blade
B
Bladerunner
Guest
Yes, you are right, a mistake...most of the gospels were written in the early 50's and other books of the NT were written prior to Nero--64-66.35 AD is an extremely early dating for the Gospel of Luke. Where do you find scholars arguing for it?
If his Gospel was written any time prior to 70 AD then there is no conclusive evidence that he had 70 AD in mind as the date for the second coming of Jesus. If his Gospel was written after 70 AD and he thought that is when the second coming of Jesus occurred, then we are left with the question of why he neglected to say so.
The dating you offer for John is very reasonable.
I don’t agree with the assertion that Jesus is the author of all words in the Bible.
Thanks for the catch
Blade
P
patrick jane
Guest
I have a NIV study bible, a gift from my cousin Sharon, a Pentecostal. I started reading again with that one, but I switched to the KJV and the word of God opened up to me like never before. I remember the excitement I felt, like a fire inside and a desire to do nothing but read God's words more and more. I need to get that fire back and get back in the words by reading the book here at hone instead of online.Yes, you are right, a mistake...most of the gospels were written in the early 50's and other books of the NT were written prior to Nero--64-66.
Thanks for the catch
Blade
My point though, is to say the study bible showed the approximate dates of every book in the Bible. I felt like they were accurate.
1
1Mind1Spirit
Guest
What part of Eleazar don't you understand?I'll put that whole chapter in the spoiler below.
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner 3 [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord [the eastern gate] about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.
So I'm not sure how you think that it was signs and wonders done by any of the roman emperors like Titus, Nero, etc.
(None of those guys claim all of that was caused by them.)
Nor is it a time when the faithful are gathered to Jesus at His coming.
Eleazar was the Israelite who took charge of the Temple and did as he pleased contrary to the Law.
I'm not talking about any Roman emperor.
1
1Mind1Spirit
Guest
How about some proof any of the gospels were written 50s or later.Yes, you are right, a mistake...most of the gospels were written in the early 50's and other books of the NT were written prior to Nero--64-66.
Thanks for the catch
Blade
1
1Mind1Spirit
Guest
Which ones and why?I have a NIV study bible, a gift from my cousin Sharon, a Pentecostal. I started reading again with that one, but I switched to the KJV and the word of God opened up to me like never before. I remember the excitement I felt, like a fire inside and a desire to do nothing but read God's words more and more. I need to get that fire back and get back in the words by reading the book here at hone instead of online.
My point though, is to say the study bible showed the approximate dates of every book in the Bible. I felt like they were accurate.
B
Bladerunner
Guest
which ones you want proof on.How about some proof any of the gospels were written 50s or later.
Blade
1
1Mind1Spirit
Guest
Show me one, outside of Iraneus , who thought Jesus was 50 years old.(wadda joke)My friend,, you seem to think that History does not could...There is History written outside of the Catholic Papcy. By all Historical (not Catholic) records, John wrote Revelation around 96AD....
Blade
John went to Patmos at the same time his brother James was killed.
1
1Mind1Spirit
Guest
Any will do.which ones you want proof on.
Blade
Try not to quote the so called patristic fathers.
However I will accept the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians.
Study up.
Then come back.
B
Bladerunner
Guest
Did I say anything about the Age of Jesus Christ. From my calculations, Jesus was born in 2-4 CE and died on April 6, 32AD. at the least he would be 34 and most He would be 36.Show me one, outside of Iraneus , who thought Jesus was 50 years old.(wadda joke)
John went to Patmos at the same time his brother James was killed.
Blade