Belief a Conscious Choice?

[Mr E]

But you cannot decide and be convinced. If one is convinced then there is no room or need for any decision.

I understand what you are saying however Abraham decided to be convinced. In that he convinced himself-- despite what he knew to be true, despite being a hundred years old -and 'good as dead' he hoped against hope....

Who hopes for what they are convinced of? "Hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?"

He hoped against hope for what he had not seen and what he had not received and he convinced himself that God would keep His promise. He decided to believe God.

 

[Arial]

If someone emails you that you won thousand dollars but you do not believe it is true you would be silly to choose to click on the link.

If I don’t believe God exists it would be silly for me to choose him.

The gift of belief is like a seed, once it sprouts it needs to be watered and cared for. That is why Jesus used seeds in his parables.

Everything is a growth or dying process.

I find that analogies to the things in creation, as Jesus used in His parables, are used quite effectively to convey a spiritual truth. And there is another truth inside of this truth, that nature (creation) contains and that is that as God is involved in all of it, every bit of creation contains His fingerprint, and therefore, spiritual truths can be found in things of creation. We can't learn spiritual truth,or saving truth from the creation, we need God to reveal that to us. But once we have been reborn, and as we grow in faith and knowledge, we can begin to see them.

Take the humble but delicious tomato for example. It ripens from the inside out, not from the outside in. Much like our regeneration and the resulting sanctification.

Or the eagle, which scripture often uses to depict or describe God. One of the most beautiful scriptures in all the Bible is Is 40:31 "But those who wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings like eagles. They shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint." Interesting that eagles if they try to fly by flapping their wings will quickly tire and wear out, amd not go far. They have to glide on thermals, and will sometimes perch for days until the right wind currents come along. And then they soar. It is for this reason also that when it is time for the young to leave the nest and fly, they are borne upon the wings of the parents into the thermals and released. If there is a failure of flight, the adults go beneath them and settle them securely on their own wings again.

Sort of a side dialog, but it came to mind. And welcome back.

 

[Mr E]

I find that analogies to the things in creation, as Jesus used in His parables, are used quite effectively to convey a spiritual truth. And there is another truth inside of this truth, that nature (creation) contains and that is that as God is involved in all of it, every bit of creation contains His fingerprint, and therefore, spiritual truths can be found in things of creation. We can't learn spiritual truth,or saving truth from the creation, we need God to reveal that to us. But once we have been reborn, and as we grow in faith and knowledge, we can begin to see them.

Take the humble but delicious tomato for example. It ripens from the inside out, not from the outside in. Much like our regeneration and the resulting sanctification.

Or the eagle, which scripture often uses to depict or describe God. One of the most beautiful scriptures in all the Bible is Is 40:31 "But those who wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings like eagles. They shall run and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint." Interesting that eagles if they try to fly by flapping their wings will quickly tire and wear out, amd not go far. They have to glide on thermals, and will sometimes perch for days until the right wind currents come along. And then they soar. It is for this reason also that when it is time for the young to leave the nest and fly, they are borne upon the wings of the parents into the thermals and released. If there is a failure of flight, the adults go beneath them and settle them securely on their own wings again.

Sort of a side dialog, but it came to mind. And welcome back.

I didn't know that about tomatoes --- Fun Fact! -thank you.

View: https://youtu.be/2hXGtUMOfCA

 

[Grace Accepted]

My choice to believe was because nothing else was fulfilling my heart which was devoid of any love. Jesus Christ was the only one to bring forth love to my heart by being born again of the spirit.

Now this is confusing. You say you chose to believe because nothing else was fulfilling your heart and that Jesus was the only one to bring forth love to your heart. How can that be unless you were already believing that there was a Jesus? Your belief had to proceed Jesus bringing love to your heart, right?

Though even though live in this body of flesh and make a choice between the flesh and the spirit; the spirit is far more worth while to have and experience during this walk on earth even though suffering is still partaken in and through the flesh at the willingness of desiring to love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul and to love your neighbor as yourself.

You had to believe that there was a flesh and a spirit before you could make such a choice.

The ability to have Jesus Christ as our righteousness is a great gift to receive which is a gift from God you are right about that it is true. People become children of God based upon their choice in the desire from their own heart to follow and make a choice to have God first in their very own individual life. It is also not based on works, also it allows you to have hope that your purpose here on earth while having God to look towards in your life of forgiveness and mistakes during it while mainly focusing on God allows Grace to be sufficient enough also.

One must believe that there is a God before one can make a choice to become His child. Now the bible does not say we chose God. It says He chooses us. We become children of God not through choosing him but by receiving him. (John 1:12)

 

[Grace Accepted]

Greetings again Grace_accepted,

To some extent I am still struggling with this subject, and possibly after this post I will withdraw and consider this privately. I am conscious that there are two extremes, labelled Calvinism and Arminianism. The one seems to suggest that God arbitrarily chooses some for salvation and ignores the rest, and the other suggests that we have complete choice. I am not sure, but I assess the concept that some receive the Holy Spirit and can thus believe, while others cannot believe because they have not received the Holy Spirit is an extreme form of Calvinism.

Avoid the extremes and pay no attention to systems of theology that men have set up. What does God say through His scriptures?

The following is where my thoughts are today, hoping to widen the perspective to some extent, but realising that this is not a complete answer. The Parable of the Sower indicates that there are various responses to the Word of God when it is preached, and that this is to some extent depending on what type of “soil” represents the individual. One of our young expositors also suggested that we can change from being a hardened soil, like the path, to eventually becoming good soil, and part of this may involve an element of choice. The word “Selah” in the Psalms has been rendered as “Stop, Pause and Consider”.

The Holy Spirit can change our hearts, we cannot. The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Jerimiah 17:9
Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.? Jeremiah 13:23

Think God that he intervenes.

I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances Ezekiel 36:25-27

Jesus, after giving the Parable of the Sower states the following:
Matthew 13:9 (KJV): Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Again this seems to indicate some element of choice, of reflection, a decision to take what Jesus has stated as important and worthy of serious contemplation, and the Hebrew OT word “schema” has the sense of not only hearing, but hearkening and doing. The Seven Letters to the Congregations in Revelation 2-3 all conclude with this admonition, and together with some encouragement, many of the Letters are warnings to repent, again the need to carefully consider and make the correct choice.

But as you indicate God is the source of faith:
Matthew 13:11 (KJV): He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

It does not seem to be black and white:
Matthew 13:14-16 (KJV): 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Perhaps the whole question also revolves around how did the contemporaries of Isaiah and Jesus end up becoming blind and deaf and hard of heart, and how did others become disciples of Isaiah and Jesus. To what extent can we stop, pause and consider and thus choose the right path, and receive the promises that Jesus offered the Congregations in Asia, and bring forth the fruit of the Parable of the Sower, and the Fruit of the Spirit.

Kind regards
Trevor

At this point, I feel strongly that it is as simple as not resisting the Holy Spirit. If we do not resist God, He will save us. It will be a growth process all the way. If we resist him, we will be in a dying process because we are refusing life.

Remember the one time Jesus spoke theologically on this earth was when He spoke to a theologian named Nicodemus. Jesus laid out the very point upon which the verdict of all men rested. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus even more directly than he did to his disciples and John 3 should be a deeply studied passage. As to the hardening of the heart. It is good to remember that the same sun that hardens clay also softens wax.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I understand what you are saying however Abraham decided to be convinced. In that he convinced himself-- despite what he knew to be true, despite being a hundred years old -and 'good as dead' he hoped against hope....

Who hopes for what they are convinced of? "Hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?"

He hoped against hope for what he had not seen and what he had not received and he convinced himself that God would keep His promise. He decided to believe God.

He knew GOD was trustworthy. As did Job.

One can hope contrary to what they think they know. This hope would be based in belief though it seems. GOD gives us of HIS Word. We either believe from there, or we remain unchanged. We are either born anew and grow in saving faith, or we hear and hear yet the seed never takes root...that's sorta how I see it at least.

 

[Bladerunner]

He knew GOD was trustworthy. As did Job.

One can hope contrary to what they think they know. This hope would be based in belief though it seems. GOD gives us of HIS Word. We either believe from there, or we remain unchanged. We are either born anew and grow in saving faith, or we hear and hear yet the seed never takes root...that's sorta how I see it at least.

The growing of the seed is necessary for a saving faith to grow. If one does not hear different aruguments for or against, how does one know where they stand in their relationship with GOD. I have changed my mind on different subjects many times over the years simply because someone brought to an argument that when checked out fit in with my theology. Always keep and open ear and follow Acts 17:11......I have used it many times.

Blade

 

[MatthewG]

Okay, thank you for expressed view. Would you say it’s a choice or something like God chose you personally out of all the world itself?

My suggestion is God is calling all to himself through Christ, and one must make a decision/choose.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Grace_accepted,

The Holy Spirit can change our hearts, we cannot. The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Jerimiah 17:9
Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.? Jeremiah 13:23

You have quoted possibly a marginal translation and then linked it with Jeremiah 13:23. The following are some of the other translations:
Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV): The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9 (ASV 1901): The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9 (RSV): The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9 (NASB95): “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
Jeremiah 17:9 (ESV): The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
I considered Jeremiah 17:9 in my Psalm 1 thread, and never considered that Psalm 1 and Jeremiah's commentary of Psalm 1 in Jeremiah 17 had anything to do with our need for the Holy Spirit.

At this point, I feel strongly that it is as simple as not resisting the Holy Spirit.

I have had a few discussions with an ex-Baptist, now part time Pentecostal Pastor. He considered that he could answer me by drawing upon the Holy Spirit within, almost without proper reasoning or thought, and a few times he hesitated for a few seconds and then gave what I considered a ridiculous answer. He also strongly believed in OSAS, and he used to say that the Holy Spirit was more powerful than ourselves and therefore we could not fall away.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[rstrats]

Belief a Conscious Choice?​

To this question I believe so.

Are you saying that you think that you have the ability to consciously engender a new belief, i.e., to be convinced, without doubt, that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true? If so, perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously choose any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that. I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I choose to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron." and who stores away his gold in a pot at the end of a rainbow, and If ever captured has to grant three wishes to the person who captures him.

So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, choose to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings rstrats,

Are you saying that you think that you have the ability to consciously engender a new belief, i.e., to be convinced, without doubt, that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true?

When Paul was confronted by the risen Jesus on the way to Damascus, he changed his belief to accept that Jesus was the Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Arial]

I am conscious that there are two extremes, labelled Calvinism and Arminianism. The one seems to suggest that God arbitrarily chooses some for salvation

TrevorL,

I do not jump in here to change the topic or to try and persuade you in one direction or another, but to point out one word in this sentence that does not belong, when considering the merits of Calvinism. The word arbitrarily. Calvinism and Reformed Theology do not teach that God chooses arbitrarily. There is nothing arbitrary about anything God does. He has a reason for doing everything, and it is a "good" reason. The Bible tells us that the choice is according to the good pleasure of His will. Eph 1:5 Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. We cannot know what His reason is, but we can know what it isn't, in this matter. It is not based on anything we have done or are, whether good or bad. It is not something we merit or deserve.