A
Arial
Guest
Well---
You did not choose to start liking a food you detested. By your own words, what you chose, was to give it another try, and found out you no longer detested it. My two cents, because I thought if funny.
You did not choose to start liking a food you detested. By your own words, what you chose, was to give it another try, and found out you no longer detested it. My two cents, because I thought if funny.
M
Mr E
Guest
Well---
A distinction without a difference. I really did choose. I chose to try shrimp with a cocktail sauce and that made something I found detestable, tasty... and so on.
By the way, it was for conversations like this that I strongly encouraged @patrick jane to create this place and invested in him to accomplish.
R
rstrats
Guest
Grace Accepted,
re: "Another aspect is that we cannot choose something that does not exist.
Can't argue with that. You certainly can't reach out and take a hold of an object that isn't there. But that's a different issue.
re: "If we do not believe it would be silly for us to consider it a choice."
Not sure what your saying. Can you give an example?
re: "In essence God gives us belief and we can chose to not believe."
So once you've been given the belief - let's say- that "x" exists and you are now convinced of that, you could go ahead and say: "OK, at the present I believe that "x" exists, but I am going to believe that it doesn't exist and - poof- I now believe that it doesn't exist."?
re: "Another aspect is that we cannot choose something that does not exist.
Can't argue with that. You certainly can't reach out and take a hold of an object that isn't there. But that's a different issue.
re: "If we do not believe it would be silly for us to consider it a choice."
Not sure what your saying. Can you give an example?
re: "In essence God gives us belief and we can chose to not believe."
So once you've been given the belief - let's say- that "x" exists and you are now convinced of that, you could go ahead and say: "OK, at the present I believe that "x" exists, but I am going to believe that it doesn't exist and - poof- I now believe that it doesn't exist."?
S
Studyman
Guest
I agree.
But just one point. The "disobedience" which happened in the OT was said to have happened because of "Unbelief". In Eve's case, God told her she would die if she did something. She was convinced by "another" religious voice, who quoted some of God's word, that she would not die. That God basically purposefully lied to her to keep her blind.
5 ****For God doth know****** that in the day ye eat thereof, (Disobey the Commandment) ******then your eyes shall be opened,******* and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
M
MatthewG
Guest
Belief a Conscious Choice?
To this question I believe so. To have belief that the Lord Jesus Christ came, died, was buried, and was risen again by God and that the Lord Jesus has paid for all of the sin of mankind, defeated Sin, Satan, Death, the Grave take faith to believe. Which is a choice to believe, and all people during Jesus and his Ministry had a choice in the matter to believe or not to believe and many rejected Him, which according to old testament prophecy about Jesus had been made true because of what it says about Himself.
Isaiah 53:2-3
A
Arial
Guest
I agree that disobedience in this case, as well as in most cases, (though with those with the saving faith that unites them to Christ, it is a temporary lapse due to our fallen nature)is rooted in unbelief. The Deut scriptures you quote are often used to prove that we can choose God without any help from God Himself. I see the conditions of the covenant in the covenant with Israel, as being different from our being able to, by choice, have faith in the gospel. They were given rules, regulations, laws, that were very specific and clearly defined. The choice was whether to do them or not. It wasn't a choice of what to believe. And even if it was, they were choosing between two distinct things that God presented to them. They didn't arrive there on their own.Though of course, some may have chosen obedience because they believed, there is a good chance it was simply in order to live, or be blessed. And as we see, they were never able to live up to the bargain.
A
Arial
Guest
I agree that it takes faith to believe those things. I would counter with do you have that faith because you chose to believe? Or do you believe because you have the faith. Was that faith found within you, through reasoning and choice? Or was it given to you, placed in you, by the grace of God?
T
TrevorL
Guest
Greetings again Grace_accepted,
The following is where my thoughts are today, hoping to widen the perspective to some extent, but realising that this is not a complete answer. The Parable of the Sower indicates that there are various responses to the Word of God when it is preached, and that this is to some extent depending on what type of “soil” represents the individual. One of our young expositors also suggested that we can change from being a hardened soil, like the path, to eventually becoming good soil, and part of this may involve an element of choice. The word “Selah” in the Psalms has been rendered as “Stop, Pause and Consider”.
Jesus, after giving the Parable of the Sower states the following:
Matthew 13:9 (KJV): Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Again this seems to indicate some element of choice, of reflection, a decision to take what Jesus has stated as important and worthy of serious contemplation, and the Hebrew OT word “schema” has the sense of not only hearing, but hearkening and doing. The Seven Letters to the Congregations in Revelation 2-3 all conclude with this admonition, and together with some encouragement, many of the Letters are warnings to repent, again the need to carefully consider and make the correct choice.
But as you indicate God is the source of faith:
Matthew 13:11 (KJV): He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
It does not seem to be black and white:
Matthew 13:14-16 (KJV): 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Perhaps the whole question also revolves around how did the contemporaries of Isaiah and Jesus end up becoming blind and deaf and hard of heart, and how did others become disciples of Isaiah and Jesus. To what extent can we stop, pause and consider and thus choose the right path, and receive the promises that Jesus offered the Congregations in Asia, and bring forth the fruit of the Parable of the Sower, and the Fruit of the Spirit.
Kind regards
Trevor
To some extent I am still struggling with this subject, and possibly after this post I will withdraw and consider this privately. I am conscious that there are two extremes, labelled Calvinism and Arminianism. The one seems to suggest that God arbitrarily chooses some for salvation and ignores the rest, and the other suggests that we have complete choice. I am not sure, but I assess the concept that some receive the Holy Spirit and can thus believe, while others cannot believe because they have not received the Holy Spirit is an extreme form of Calvinism.
The following is where my thoughts are today, hoping to widen the perspective to some extent, but realising that this is not a complete answer. The Parable of the Sower indicates that there are various responses to the Word of God when it is preached, and that this is to some extent depending on what type of “soil” represents the individual. One of our young expositors also suggested that we can change from being a hardened soil, like the path, to eventually becoming good soil, and part of this may involve an element of choice. The word “Selah” in the Psalms has been rendered as “Stop, Pause and Consider”.
Jesus, after giving the Parable of the Sower states the following:
Matthew 13:9 (KJV): Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Again this seems to indicate some element of choice, of reflection, a decision to take what Jesus has stated as important and worthy of serious contemplation, and the Hebrew OT word “schema” has the sense of not only hearing, but hearkening and doing. The Seven Letters to the Congregations in Revelation 2-3 all conclude with this admonition, and together with some encouragement, many of the Letters are warnings to repent, again the need to carefully consider and make the correct choice.
But as you indicate God is the source of faith:
Matthew 13:11 (KJV): He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
It does not seem to be black and white:
Matthew 13:14-16 (KJV): 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Perhaps the whole question also revolves around how did the contemporaries of Isaiah and Jesus end up becoming blind and deaf and hard of heart, and how did others become disciples of Isaiah and Jesus. To what extent can we stop, pause and consider and thus choose the right path, and receive the promises that Jesus offered the Congregations in Asia, and bring forth the fruit of the Parable of the Sower, and the Fruit of the Spirit.
Kind regards
Trevor
G
Grace Accepted
Guest
If someone emails you that you won thousand dollars but you do not believe it is true you would be silly to choose to click on the link.
If I don’t believe God exists it would be silly for me to choose him.
The gift of belief is like a seed, once it sprouts it needs to be watered and cared for. That is why Jesus used seeds in his parables.
Everything is a growth or dying process.
G
Grace Accepted
Guest
It was a gift from God. The Bible is clear on this matter but mankind had a choice to disbelieve if they loved darkness more than light.
M
MatthewG
Guest
My choice to believe was because nothing else was fulfilling my heart which was devoid of any love. Jesus Christ was the only one to bring forth love to my heart by being born again of the spirit. Though even though live in this body of flesh and make a choice between the flesh and the spirit; the spirit is far more worth while to have and experience during this walk on earth even though suffering is still partaken in and through the flesh at the willingness of desiring to love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul and to love your neighbor as yourself.
The ability to have Jesus Christ as our righteousness is a great gift to receive which is a gift from God you are right about that it is true. People become children of God based upon their choice in the desire from their own heart to follow and make a choice to have God first in their very own individual life. It is also not based on works, also it allows you to have hope that your purpose here on earth while having God to look towards in your life of forgiveness and mistakes during it while mainly focusing on God allows Grace to be sufficient enough also.
It is not however something that makes anyone better than anyone else the believer or non believer to know that God does love them, cares about them, desires to know about their anxieties and worries that they face in this life while going through this life that has many hardships and trails in life that involve and entail many personal experiences, and person stories.
Some people would even say people can not lose faith, or walk away from faith. If that is your opinion you have a right to that opinion however; when it comes to scripture it seems to me that drifting away, or no longer pressing in having a relationship with God or seek God, and learn about God and the Lord Jesus Christ is predicated on the individual themselves, and they can walk away from faith at any given time, and believe that there is proof in the bible that is sufficient enough to stand on its own.
If you believe differently you may feel free to explain. What is known in my life was at the age of 26 made a choice to choose to learn who the Lord Jesus Christ was. And would encourage anyone to do so; and also to do so without influence and what man may teach you about the bible because it is best for the person do their own research, talk with God and come to their own conclusions though if you desire to listen to others and what they may have to say is not a bad thing either.
Just test all things by the spirit; and the scripture and do not believe me.
The ability to have Jesus Christ as our righteousness is a great gift to receive which is a gift from God you are right about that it is true. People become children of God based upon their choice in the desire from their own heart to follow and make a choice to have God first in their very own individual life. It is also not based on works, also it allows you to have hope that your purpose here on earth while having God to look towards in your life of forgiveness and mistakes during it while mainly focusing on God allows Grace to be sufficient enough also.
It is not however something that makes anyone better than anyone else the believer or non believer to know that God does love them, cares about them, desires to know about their anxieties and worries that they face in this life while going through this life that has many hardships and trails in life that involve and entail many personal experiences, and person stories.
Some people would even say people can not lose faith, or walk away from faith. If that is your opinion you have a right to that opinion however; when it comes to scripture it seems to me that drifting away, or no longer pressing in having a relationship with God or seek God, and learn about God and the Lord Jesus Christ is predicated on the individual themselves, and they can walk away from faith at any given time, and believe that there is proof in the bible that is sufficient enough to stand on its own.
If you believe differently you may feel free to explain. What is known in my life was at the age of 26 made a choice to choose to learn who the Lord Jesus Christ was. And would encourage anyone to do so; and also to do so without influence and what man may teach you about the bible because it is best for the person do their own research, talk with God and come to their own conclusions though if you desire to listen to others and what they may have to say is not a bad thing either.
Just test all things by the spirit; and the scripture and do not believe me.
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popsthebuilder
Guest
But you cannot decide and be convinced. If one is convinced then there is no room or need for any decision.