Belief a Conscious Choice?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again rstrats,

To what fine line are you referring, and how would you change it?

I found the OP a bit obscure and I was not sure what you were advocating or questioning, and perhaps you could clarify. I was suspicious that you were suggesting or hinting that we cannot believe unless we first have the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit bestowed upon us. For my part I believe that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected and exalted, but I do not attribute this to a direct infusion of the Spirit of God apart from the teaching of the Word of God. Using the example of Peter, I accept the validity of the resurrection on the basis of Peter's three denials and the three discerning questions that Jesus gave Peter in John 20 and Peter's responses. I do not need the Holy Spirit to interpret these, but I need to carefully consider these and meditate on them and accept the lessons involved. If this is what you mean by the following, then my answer is: Yes.

But once the decision is made that they want to believe something, is it then possible to go ahead and actually consciously engender the belief, i.e., be convinced, without doubt, that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true?

Even here, the sequence is in reverse, as I question the resurrection, but then believe on the basis of the reality of these circumstances and this interaction with Peter and many other factors. I do not necessarily want to believe, but because of the evidence I am compelled to believe.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[patrick jane]

Greetings again rstrats,

I found the OP a bit obscure and I was not sure what you were advocating or questioning, and perhaps you could clarify. I was suspicious that you were suggesting or hinting that we cannot believe unless we first have the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit bestowed upon us. For my part I believe that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected and exalted, but I do not attribute this to a direct infusion of the Spirit of God apart from the teaching of the Word of God. Using the example of Peter, I accept the validity of the resurrection on the basis of Peter's three denials and the three discerning questions that Jesus gave Peter in John 20 and Peter's responses. I do not need the Holy Spirit to interpret these, but I need to carefully consider these and meditate on them and accept the lessons involved. If this is what you mean by the following, then my answer is: Yes.

Even here, the sequence is in reverse, as I question the resurrection, but then believe on the basis of the reality of these circumstances and this interaction with Peter and many other factors. I do not necessarily want to believe, but because of the evidence I am compelled to believe.

Kind regards
Trevor

You have been persuaded.

Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.


Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Acts 13:41-49 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

 

[Jasher]

Believing(having faith)

Some might call it semantics, others might called it rightly dividing the word of truth yet believing and having faith are not the same thing.

Can you believe that it is possible they don't mean the same thing in scriptures?

I do not see how a person choosing to believe something is the same thing as actually believing it.

Belief is a choice. Believing something is merely accepting it as being possibly true which requires no factual or verifiable evidence of its being true. Unless a person is lying, what they say they believe is generally what they actually believe.

They may actually believe whatever it is, but that is because they do believe it, not because they chose to believe it.

If someone doesn't have any personal knowledge of something being true then they choose to believe it is true or is not true.

Hebrews 11:6, "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is...". The reason they must accept the existence of God being true is because they have no actual knowledge as to whether God exists or not. Thus, they must believe he is.

 

[Arial]

If someone doesn't have any personal knowledge of something being true then they choose to believe it is true or is not true.

Hebrews 11:6, "for he that cometh to God must believe that he is...". The reason they must accept the existence of God being true is because they have no actual knowledge as to whether God exists or not. Thus, they must believe he is.

Belief is always causal. Never in a vacuum. Choosing to believe something one has no knowledge of, is simply saying you believe something, but how can you believe what you have no knowledge of?

As to the Hebrews scripture, we do, according to scripture, have the evidence of God's existence seen in the creation. And no one would come to God if they didn't believe He existed anyway. The scripture does not say that man must choose to believe that God exists, it says we can't/won't come to Him unless we do believe He exists. Just a couple of thoughts. When it comes to choosing to believe the gospel, that does not actually equate to believing it. We can choose to look into it, we can choose to read about it or listen, or examine it in scripture. But if we "choose" to believe it, it is because we already do. Choosing to believe it will not produce actual belief. That may come about at some point if we keep it before our eyes or in our ears, but the choice did not cause the belief. It only put us in a position of hearing the gospel.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Arial,

As to the Hebrews scripture, we do, according to scripture, have the evidence of God's existence seen in the creation.

Yes, but our faith may have been initiated by belief of another aspect of God's revelation. I also suggest that faith, and our individual faith needs to be both qualitative and quantitative.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Arial]

Greetings again Arial,

Yes, but our faith may have been initiated by belief of another aspect of God's revelation. I also suggest that faith, and our individual faith needs to be both qualitative and quantitative.

Kind regards
Trevor

True. The knowledge of God's existence that we see in nature, will not save anyone. It takes the revelation of Himself and His plan of redemption that He gives us in His word. It is faith (trust) in these things, believing these things, that is the faith that saves.

 

[rstrats]

TrevorL,
re: "I found the OP a bit obscure and I was not sure what you were advocating or questioning, and perhaps you could clarify."

Not sure what's obscure about it. I'm simply asking if it's possible to consciously engender a belief in the existence of someone or something or with regard to the truth of a proposition?


re: "I was suspicious that you were suggesting or hinting that we cannot believe unless we first have the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit bestowed upon us.

I wasn't and I'm not.


re: "I do not necessarily want to believe, but because of the evidence I am compelled to believe.

But the impetus for this topic was due to a poster saying that they did want to believe something.

 

[Studyman]

Greetings rstrats,

I am not sure of the fine line that you are suggesting and I would not use this terminology. I can say that I believe that Jesus was crucified, then raised from the dead and exalted to sit at the right hand of God. My belief is based upon many factors and life experiences, but especially it is based upon what the Word of God teaches in simply convincing narrative and the interaction of individuals such as the two on the Way to Emmaus, Mary Magdalene, and Peter and Paul. How my belief all comes together seems to me irrelevant.

Kind regards
Trevor

I imagine there are different ways God reveals HIS truth to folks, given we all have our own cross to bear, which differs one from the other, and yet we are all to to take it up, and follow Him.

Good point.

 

[Grace Accepted]

In the closed topic, "Could you Choose to Believe in a Literal Santa Claus?" a poster wrote: "A person can decide to believe."
But once the decision is made that they want to believe something, is it then possible to go ahead and actually consciously engender the belief, i.e., be convinced, without doubt, that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true?

I was th author of that Santa OP. I am glad you resurrected it. Humans cannot choose many things. For instance, we can't choose to start liking a food we detest. We can't choose to have positive feelings for a person whom we hate. We can't choose to believe what is unbelievable to us. Yes, we can pretend but as I indicated in the Santa OP we cannot choose to regress and believe in Santa again.

Here are a few bibe facts that are germane.

1. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. John 15:16
2. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; Acts 22:14
3. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; Romans 12:3

It appears that the belief of faith is a gift given rather than something we conjure up in our hearts. As Jesus said to Peter, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

 

[patrick jane]

I was th author of that Santa OP. I am glad you resurrected it. Humans cannot choose many things. For instance, we can't choose to start liking a food we detest. We can't choose to have positive feelings for a person whom we hate. We can't choose to believe what is unbelievable to us. Yes, we can pretend but as I indicated in the Santa OP we cannot choose to regress and believe in Santa again.

Here are a few bibe facts that are germane.

1. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. John 15:16
2. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; Acts 22:14
3. And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; Romans 12:3

It appears that the belief of faith is a gift given rather than something we conjure up in our hearts. As Jesus said to Peter, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

I can't exactly explain how or why or the precise moment I believed but I was very young, a toddler in fact. Then I tried to NOT believe for more than two decades, and I could never stop believing. When I opened the Bible again to find out more and read the words for myself, by myself, I was again persuaded, now as a grown man.


My baptism didn't register with me because I was a baby, no memories as such, although I remember a few scenes from that day. I decided to get baptized again in 2011 having the knowledge and meaning of the act. I say persuaded because Paul uses that word describing belief and I think Peter uses the word as well.


I see now, looking back that my belief was established early in my life and as doubts and confusion built up I decided to read for myself and to read for comprehension, and as a result I confirmed that my belief was true, that Jesus is God.


That verse Romans 12:3 is different than what you quoted

 

[Grace Accepted]

I can't exactly explain how or why or the precise moment I believed but I was very young, a toddler in fact. Then I tried to NOT believe for more than two decades, and I could never stop believing. When I opened the Bible again to find out more and read the words for myself, by myself, I was again persuaded, now as a grown man.


My baptism didn't register with me because I was a baby, no memories as such, although I remember a few scenes from that day. I decided to get baptized again in 2011 having the knowledge and meaning of the act. I say persuaded because Paul uses that word describing belief and I think Peter uses the word as well.


I see now, looking back that my belief was established early in my life and as doubts and confusion built up I decided to read for myself and to read for comprehension, and as a result I confirmed that my belief was true, that Jesus is God.


That verse Romans 12:3 is different than what you quoted

You are right, but I can't fix it--sigh.

 

[patrick jane]

You are right, but I can't fix it--sigh.

Oh man, the edit time limit must have expired. I can edit it, which verse did you want?