Why Jesus Doesn't Need Your Help to Save You

[robert pate]

No, Peter, Paul was after the ascension of Jesus. Peter, John and Andrew were the three who were in the inner circle of Jesus. they were at all the events as well.

Blade

Paul did more good than all of the other apostles put together.

 

[God's Truth]

If it tells us to do something or not to do something it is law.

We have a new law.
Paul's writings are full of things to do and not to do.

If you continue to follow the law, you will perish. "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4.

If you continue to follow the old law's purification works.

Law keeping does not please God, Law keeping pisses God off, Romans 4:15.

The old law brings wrath.

The Pharisees were hypocrites and you are one of them.

You are just like the Pharisees, who did NOT REPENT of their SINS.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

Did you read that?
The Pharisees are just like you, and you like them.

 

[Bladerunner]

Paul did more good than all of the other apostles put together.

Paul is our apostle, the apostle of the Gentile, yet He still had to go to the Jew first and then the gentile.
All the other apostles and disciples spread the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world during Paul's time.....All of them were chosen by Jesus and thus each one was very special and should be honored by
us.

Blade

 

[robert pate]

Paul is our apostle, the apostle of the Gentile, yet He still had to go to the Jew first and then the gentile.
All the other apostles and disciples spread the gospel of Jesus Christ throughout the world during Paul's time.....All of them were chosen by Jesus and thus each one was very special and should be honored by
us.

Blade

Yes, but Paul was the greatest.

 

[robert pate]

We have a new law.
Paul's writings are full of things to do and not to do.

If you continue to follow the old law's purification works.

The old law brings wrath.

You are just like the Pharisees, who did NOT REPENT of their SINS.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

Did you read that?
The Pharisees are just like you, and you like them.

I don't believe in law keeping, but you do. You cannot confess that you are a sinner, which means that you are void of the Holy Spirit.

 

[The_drake_]

There are several reasons why Jesus doesn't need your help to save you, the most obvious is that Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. We had nothing to do with God reconciling us and the world unto God, this took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born. It is a past historical event. Jesus as humanities representative fulfilled every jot and tittle of God's holy law, Matthew 5:18. He did this in our name and on our behalf, just like we did it ourselves. The law demands perfection, we don't have it to offer, because we are all born after Adam who was a sinner. We all have Adam's blood flowing through our veins. This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23. Sinners cannot save sinners, nor can sinners save themselves.

Paul wrote, "Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation: even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" Romans 518. Just as we were lost by a representative, so we are saved by a representative. We are saved, justified, sanctified and redeemed by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus as our representative and substitute has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man.

1. A life of perfect obedience according to his holy law.

2. A perfect atonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

Jesus in our name and on our behalf, has victoriously met both of these requirements. This why Paul said, "And you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power" Colossians 2:10. If we are ALREADY perfect and complete in Christ then what good is religion?

Now, how does this wonderful salvation become ours? It most certainly is not by works, because all of the work of salvation has already been done by Jesus Christ. There is nothing that we can do to add to what Christ has done for us, nor is there anything that we can do to take away from what Christ has done for us. It is a past historical event. All through the Old Testament and into the New Testament God's people are saved and justified by faith. Faith is believing and accepting what God has done for us in Jesus Christ. Even little children are capable of hearing and believing the Gospel.

Holiness theology is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. The Catholic church and others do not believe the Gospel. They do not believe that Jesus has ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God. They believe that they can reconcile themselves unto God by their works and obedience to the law. It is a do-it-yourself salvation that is under the judgment of God. Man does not have a righteousness that God will accept, this is why salvation is totally and completely outside of ourselves and is only found in the work and the person of Jesus Christ.

You are misconstruing what the Catholics actually believe.

Officially, an apologist will agree with you that nothing a human can do can justify grace, and it is freely given. Only faith and baptism (and even then baptism can be given spiritually) are really important to be eligible for heaven. Even then, if someone is genuinely misled by their own intellect (what they would say, genuinely thinks the Catholics are wrong) they can still go to heaven. If they've never heard of Christianity, they can still go to heaven.

The only way to for sure be outside of the potential for heaven in the RCC is to know the "Truth of the Catholic faith" and reject it willfully. So you'd have to know Jesus/Trinity etc and give him a finger even until the moment you finally died. Even without all the things I said, salvation is still possible to them, because in their view all things are possible for God, and they will not say for certain that anyone is in hell. That is up to God in their minds.

They would say such exceptions would end up with a person spending a long time in purgatory for purifying purposes, but that doesn't put them outside the potential for salvation.

(Disclaimer: Am a protestant)

 

[God's Truth]

I don't believe in law keeping, but you do. You cannot confess that you are a sinner, which means that you are void of the Holy Spirit.

You have to repent of your sins in order to get saved, but you refuse to do that, and you continue to teach what the devils like, and that is that we don't have to repent of our sins to get saved, and that what to do and what not to do is wrong.

 

[robert pate]

You have to repent of your sins in order to get saved, but you refuse to do that, and you continue to teach what the devils like, and that is that we don't have to repent of our sins to get saved, and that what to do and what not to do is wrong.

You want to put the cart in front of the horse. Repentance is something that we do, it is a work of the Holy Spirit. We are not saved or justified by anything that we do. Before anyone can repent, they must be born again by the Gospel. They must hear and believe the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:3. Here is the order of salvation.

Hearing the Gospel.
Believing the Gospel.
Being born again by the Holy Spirit.
Repenting.

 

[robert pate]

You are misconstruing what the Catholics actually believe.

Officially, an apologist will agree with you that nothing a human can do can justify grace, and it is freely given. Only faith and baptism (and even then baptism can be given spiritually) are really important to be eligible for heaven. Even then, if someone is genuinely misled by their own intellect (what they would say, genuinely thinks the Catholics are wrong) they can still go to heaven. If they've never heard of Christianity, they can still go to heaven.

The only way to for sure be outside of the potential for heaven in the RCC is to know the "Truth of the Catholic faith" and reject it willfully. So you'd have to know Jesus/Trinity etc and give him a finger even until the moment you finally died. Even without all the things I said, salvation is still possible to them, because in their view all things are possible for God, and they will not say for certain that anyone is in hell. That is up to God in their minds.

They would say such exceptions would end up with a person spending a long time in purgatory for purifying purposes, but that doesn't put them outside the potential for salvation.

(Disclaimer: Am a protestant)

Catholicism is a works religion; it is dependent upon what you do and what you have become. There is little to nothing about what Christ has done to save you. It is more about saving yourself. Catholics will be in the "Lord, Lord didn't we group" Matthew 7:21-23. The only ones that are going to be in heaven are those that are trusting in the work and the person of Jesus Christ for their salvation.

 

[God's Truth]

You want to put the cart in front of the horse.

No, I don't do that, you do.
I'll prove it to you easy.
Why wasn't the Pharisees saved, was it because they weren't saved first, or was it because they didn't repent of their sins?
Think about it.
The scripture says plainly that they didn't get baptized with John's baptism of repentance.
It does not say because they did believe in Jesus, it says says they didn't get baptized with the baptism of repentance.

Repentance is something that we do, it is a work of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit doesn't make us repent.

We are not saved or justified by anything that we do.

Jesus justifies those who obey him.
You are a Lutheran, which is close to a full blown Calvinist.
The Lutherans believe we have to have faith to get saved, and the Calvinists say it is a work and can't even have faith first.
Well, faith is a work, the Bible says it is.
You and the Calvinists have a contest on who obeys God the least.

We have to obey to get saved, it is to who the Holy Spirit is given.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Before anyone can repent, they must be born again by the Gospel.

Being born again happens after Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit, and he only gives the Holy Spirit to those he accepts, and he accepts those who obey by humbling themselves and repenting of their sin.

They must hear and believe the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:3. Here is the order of salvation.

They must hear, believe that they have to repent of their sins. The gospel is about our being crucified with Christ...our dying to the sins of the world...we promise to die to the sins of the world and live to please Jesus.

Hearing the Gospel.
Believing the Gospel.
Being born again by the Holy Spirit.
Repenting.

I can hardly believe you got the repenting part after being saved. If we sin AFTER being saved, of course, we repent. However, just to get saved we have to know what our sins are and repent of them.

 

[The_drake_]

Catholicism is a works religion; it is dependent upon what you do and what you have become. There is little to nothing about what Christ has done to save you. It is more about saving yourself. Catholics will be in the "Lord, Lord didn't we group" Matthew 7:21-23. The only ones that are going to be in heaven are those that are trusting in the work and the person of Jesus Christ for their salvation.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 2010

"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions."

Paragraph 2011

"The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace."

This addresses the first part.

Second part Paragraph 818

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Even born again faith alone Christians can go to heaven.

 

[robert pate]

Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 2010

"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions."

Paragraph 2011

"The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace."

This addresses the first part.

Second part Paragraph 818

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Even born again faith alone Christians can go to heaven.

The only ones going to heaven are the faith alone Christians.

Catholicism is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. There is nothing in the New Testament about a Catholic church in Rome.