What to be born again for

[Arial]

Excuse me - He chooses ALL in that He desires for ALL to be saved and come to the knowledge of Him - He gives ALL the same opportunity but ONLY those who repent and believe receive eternal life, i.e. chosen to salvation. If God desires for all to be saved and He first does the choosing - ALL would be saved. But since it is left to the hearts and minds of individuals to love and choose him - it is available that some will reject Him. Hence the "many are called but few are chosen."

The gospel is withheld from no one. That is what the many are called is.
If you think that it is God's desire that everyone be saved but that not all are saved, then you are saying God is powerless to obtain His own desires.

That God desires that all would be saved it most likely applies to all those He has chosen before the foundation of the world and given to Jesus. Peter is speaking to believers. So, it could mean that. It could also mean that His nature does not rejoice at the loss of any of His creation, but His justice and righteousness demand that only those whose sins are paid for by Christ, through faith, do dwell with Him in eternity. It could mean both those things.

What it cannot mean is that God sits powerlessly by while people perish, helpless to lift a finger. Especially when He already knows, and has said, that no one seeks God.

Jesus came with a specific and definite mission. To save those God gave Him as an inheritance. And like the warrior with consuming power and glory, that is what He swept down and did. Even though He had to die Himself to do so.

Free will is not the answer to your dilemma. It sets man's will above that of God at the very juncture that determines eternal life or eternal death.

 

[shroom]

The gospel is withheld from no one. That is what the many are called is.
If you think that it is God's desire that everyone be saved but that not all are saved, then you are saying God is powerless to obtain His own desires.

God gave people free will.

That God desires that all would be saved it most likely applies to all those He has chosen before the foundation of the world and given to Jesus.

No individual is predestined.

Peter is speaking to believers. So, it could mean that. It could also mean that His nature does not rejoice at the loss of any of His creation, but His justice and righteousness demand that only those whose sins are paid for by Christ, through faith, do dwell with Him in eternity. It could mean both those things.

It means what it says.

What it cannot mean is that God sits powerlessly by while people perish, helpless to lift a finger. Especially when He already knows, and has said, that no one seeks God.

Alluding to your "brain damage" comment, your brain is damaged by Calvinism. You can see nothing else.

Jesus came with a specific and definite mission. To save those God gave Him as an inheritance. And like the warrior with consuming power and glory, that is what He swept down and did. Even though He had to die Himself to do so.

God gave people free will. Anyone can choose to believe the gospel. That's why we are to preach it. The decision to believe it or not is up to them.

Free will is not the answer to your dilemma. It sets man's will above that of God at the very juncture that determines eternal life or eternal death.

Free will is the answer. And it's not our dilemma, it's yours.

 

[Arial]

God gave people free will.

No, He didn't. He tells us our will is in bondage to sin. Is bondage freedom?

No individual is predestined.

Then you deny it when the Bible says otherwise---countless times and in countless ways.

It means what it says.

Yes, it does. You can't see what it says because you start from a completely erroneous central dogma. "Man has free will." It is from that dogma, which is nowhere supported in scripture, that you interpret all the rest of scripture (rewrite it is more like what actually happens.) The central doctrine from which all else ultimately flows, the fountain, should be God Himself. Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. Completely transcendent and other than anything or anyone else. The Creator of all and ruler of all.

Alluding to your "brain damage" comment, your brain is damaged by Calvinism. You can see nothing else.

That is just a strawman, and one of your "yenna, yenna, yaw, yaw, schoolyard comments. And you would be surprised at what I see.

God gave people free will. Anyone can choose to believe the gospel. That's why we are to preach it. The decision to believe it or not is up to them.

No, He gave us a will. We gave up the free part in Adam.

Free will is the answer. And it's not our dilemma, it's yours.

Free will isn't much of an answer, as it doesn't even exist. You actually don't do anything of your own FREE will. You always give into the greatest pressure applied or your greatest desire. The will can't act on its own.

 

[shroom]

No, He didn't. He tells us our will is in bondage to sin. Is bondage freedom?

Then you deny it when the Bible says otherwise---countless times and in countless ways.

Yes, it does. You can't see what it says because you start from a completely erroneous central dogma. "Man has free will." It is from that dogma, which is nowhere supported in scripture, that you interpret all the rest of scripture (rewrite it is more like what actually happens.) The central doctrine from which all else ultimately flows, the fountain, should be God Himself. Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. Completely transcendent and other than anything or anyone else. The Creator of all and ruler of all.

That is just a strawman, and one of your "yenna, yenna, yaw, yaw, schoolyard comments. And you would be surprised at what I see.

No, He gave us a will. We gave up the free part in Adam.

Free will isn't much of an answer, as it doesn't even exist. You actually don't do anything of your own FREE will. You always give into the greatest pressure applied or your greatest desire. The will can't act on its own.

We're at an impasse, and have been for months. I have no further response to you.

 

[Arial]

We're at an impasse, and have been for months. I have no further response to you.

So, you aren't really going to address those scriptures you said you would?

 

[patience]

The gospel is withheld from no one. That is what the many are called is.
If you think that it is God's desire that everyone be saved but that not all are saved, then you are saying God is powerless to obtain His own desires.

True, the gospel is withheld from no one. I do not "think" it's God's desire that all men be saved - it is written - 1 Timothy 2:4. The reason "all" are not saved proves man has the freedom to choose to repent and believe in Jesus Christ or reject Jesus Christ.

That God desires that all would be saved it most likely applies to all those He has chosen before the foundation of the world and given to Jesus. Peter is speaking to believers. So, it could mean that. It could also mean that His nature does not rejoice at the loss of any of His creation, but His justice and righteousness demand that only those whose sins are paid for by Christ, through faith, do dwell with Him in eternity. It could mean both those things.

That God desires that all would be saved means just that - His desire is that all would choose to believe in His Son. Correct - He does not wish that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

What it cannot mean is that God sits powerlessly by while people perish, helpless to lift a finger. Especially when He already knows, and has said, that no one seeks God.

That verse in Romans is quoted from Ps. 14 and Ps. 53 - in the context of both 'The fool says in his heart "there is no God" - They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds'. . . Fools who say there is no God do not seek God. Not one of those who say "There is no God" seek him.

Jesus came with a specific and definite mission. To save those God gave Him as an inheritance. And like the warrior with consuming power and glory, that is what He swept down and did. Even though He had to die Himself to do so.

Yes, Jesus came as the way to salvation, i.e. to save those who are perishing through belief and trust in him. He completed the task God gave him to do even unto death on a cross.

Free will is not the answer to your dilemma. It sets man's will above that of God at the very juncture that determines eternal life or eternal death.

No, it doesn't set man's will above God's but it is man submitting to God's will to repent and believe in His Son, Jesus Christ.
The coming of the lawless one is bothering activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (2 Thess. 2:10)

 

[shroom]

So, you aren't really going to address those scriptures you said you would?

God: Tyrant or Father

That's talking about God Himself. Then why did He say US. I have heard your imaginary theory that us was other spiritual beings so save you breath on that one. You have nothing to support it with. Haggai 2:5 As for the promise which I made you when you came out of Egypt, My Spirit is abiding in...

whitehorseforums.com

 

[Arial]

True, the gospel is withheld from no one. I do not "think" it's God's desire that all men be saved - it is written - 1 Timothy 2:4. The reason "all" are not saved proves man has the freedom to choose to repent and believe in Jesus Christ or reject Jesus Christ.

Well, what are the other possible meanings to "God's desire"? Take God into consideration when you answer that, the way in which He shows Himself to us. The fact that all are not saved in no way proves free will. It proves man's will is in bondage to sin. And it proves that Jesus died for specific people and that all those people will repent etc.

That God desires that all would be saved means just that - His desire is that all would choose to believe in His Son. Correct - He does not wish that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

I showed you two other ways to see that? What makes you say that they are unequivocally wrong? Show me. And before you simply repeat your believe, repent. scriptures go watch the video in Predestination and Election Explained. That way you won't simply tell me things that I have already been dealt with.

That verse in Romans is quoted from Ps. 14 and Ps. 53 - in the context of both 'The fool says in his heart "there is no God" - They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds'. . . Fools who say there is no God do not seek God. Not one of those who say "There is no God" seek him.

That is the reasoning all who do not want to believe that the fall of man affected every part of man fall back on. Paul was quoting from the OT and it didn't mean everyone, just those wicked people. Paul is interpreting those scriptures as Jesus and the apostles often interpret OT scriptures. And those who try and find their escape from this guilt in this way, separate those quotes from the OT from the rest of Romas 1,2 and 3. They pay no mind to "For there is no difference; for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Or that he prefaces those quotes with "What then? Are we any better than they? Not at all."

Yes, Jesus came as the way to salvation, i.e. to save those who are perishing through belief and trust in him. He completed the task God gave him to do even unto death on a cross.

In the grand scheme of things, He failed to save very many then. He did not come as the WAY of salvation He came to SAVE.

No, it doesn't set man's will above God's but it is man submitting to God's will to repent and believe in His Son, Jesus Christ.
The coming of the lawless one is bothering activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. (2 Thess. 2:10)

You are just running your doctrine through the wringer. That is what circular reasoning is. If it is God's will to save everyone, but man's will determines who is saved, then man's will surpasses God's. You can twist it anyway you want, but that remains the fact. And think about it. From the day of creation all the way through to the cross, the glorious and multifaceted working out of redemption, and after the veil is rent in two, giving access to a people to the very throne of God; all through the centuries, God bringing a perfect plan to fruition according to His will; after His Son has suffered and died to provide this redemption, at this most critical juncture of all the plan, God lets man have His way. Leaves the efficacy of Jesus's sacrifice up to man. Does that sound like the God of the Bible as He presents Himself, to you?

 

[shroom]

God lets man have His way. Leaves the efficacy of Jesus's sacrifice up to man. Does that sound like the God of the Bible as He presents Himself, to you?

Absolutely!

 

[Arial]

Absolutely!

That's a shame.

 

[patience]

Well, what are the other possible meanings to "God's desire"? Take God into consideration when you answer that, the way in which He shows Himself to us. The fact that all are not saved in no way proves free will. It proves man's will is in bondage to sin. And it proves that Jesus died for specific people and that all those people will repent etc.

God's wants, wishes, and what he had in mind and in purpose when he sent His Son - that ALL would come to salvation.

Yes, Jesus died for specific people - "Christ died for the ungodly", sinners" [Rom. 5:6,8].

I showed you two other ways to see that? What makes you say that they are unequivocally wrong? Show me. And before you simply repeat your believe, repent. scriptures go watch the video in Predestination and Election Explained. That way you won't simply tell me things that I have already been dealt with.

That is the reasoning all who do not want to believe that the fall of man affected every part of man fall back on. Paul was quoting from the OT and it didn't mean everyone, just those wicked people. Paul is interpreting those scriptures as Jesus and the apostles often interpret OT scriptures. And those who try and find their escape from this guilt in this way, separate those quotes from the OT from the rest of Romas 1,2 and 3. They pay no mind to "For there is no difference; for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Or that he prefaces those quotes with "What then? Are we any better than they? Not at all."

In the grand scheme of things, He failed to save very many then. He did not come as the WAY of salvation He came to SAVE.

Yes, he came as the way to salvation - "I am the way, and the truth, and the life".

You are just running your doctrine through the wringer. That is what circular reasoning is. If it is God's will to save everyone, but man's will determines who is saved, then man's will surpasses God's. You can twist it anyway you want, but that remains the fact. And think about it. From the day of creation all the way through to the cross, the glorious and multifaceted working out of redemption, and after the veil is rent in two, giving access to a people to the very throne of God; all through the centuries, God bringing a perfect plan to fruition according to His will; after His Son has suffered and died to provide this redemption, at this most critical juncture of all the plan, God lets man have His way. Leaves the efficacy of Jesus's sacrifice up to man. Does that sound like the God of the Bible as He presents Himself, to you?

Yes, God does and will bring about every plan of redemption, His plan for the end and His plan for the coming age all the while working with mankind to bring these things about - some work with Him; some against Him - we see it throughout scripture.

"Leaves the efficacy of Jesus's sacrifice up to man" - God's plan of redemption was to send His Son; Jesus perfectly carried out that plan and died a humiliating death on a cross for the ungodly and sinners making salvation available to all mankind - this is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes . . . by God's grace, God's unmerited favor, we didn't deserve it but yet - we are saved through faith (trust;belief) in the one He has sent.

 

[Arial]

God's wants, wishes, and what he had in mind and in purpose when he sent His Son - that ALL would come to salvation.

That is the very first time I ever hear of God wishing. And I can't figure out what you are saying.

Yes, he came as the way to salvation - "I am the way, and the truth, and the life".

He is the way to salvation, but He came to save. Maybe I will cover the rest of your post tomorrow, maybe not.