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What Is the Book of Romans All About?

Greetings again Arial,
Arial said:
The Holy Spirit does indeed give gifts to men but He also indwells them for the continuous work of illuminating their understanding of the scriptures and for progressive sanctification. 1 Cor 3:16; 1 Cor 6:19; 2 Tim 1:14; Rom 8:11. The Bible often says the Holy Spirit indwells the believer.
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I believe that faith comes from hearing the Word of God Romans 10:17, not by some form of the Holy Spirit interpreting or enhancing the Word.
I was interested in the comments in the book "Here I Stand - A Life of Martin Luther" By Roland Bainton page 202:
"Thomas Muntzer was readily able to find support for his view of the Spirit in the Scripture itself, where it is said that "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" 2 Corinthians 3:6. Luther replied that of course the letter without the spirit is dead, but the two are no more to be divorced than the soul from the body. The real menace of Muntzer in Luther's eyes was that he destroyed the uniqueness of Christian revelation in the past by his elevation of revelation in the present. Luther for himself had had absolutely no experience of any contemporary revelation, and in times of despondency the advice to rely upon the spirit was for him a counsel of despair, since within he could only find utter blackness. In such moments he must have assurance in tangible form in a written record of the stupendous act of God in Christ. Luther freely avowed his weakness and his need of historic revelation. Therefore he would not listen to Muntzer. At this point lies much of the difference not only between Muntzer and Luther, but between modern liberal Protestantism and the religion of the founders."
Arial said:
was Jesus actually accomplishing something when He died in our place? I say yes. I say He in actuality met justice against the sins of His people (those God would give Him) so that God could extend eternal (not temporary) mercy on them without His justice being compromised.
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There is no justice in punishing the innocent and letting the guilty go free.
Arial said:
How is this, not this below?
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One key is that Jesus was rightly related to death because he was a descendant of Adam and inherited his fallen nature.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings again Arial,

One key is that Jesus was rightly related to death because he was a descendant of Adam and inherited his fallen nature.

Kind regards
Trevor
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Sorry to interrupt but I feel the need to respond to the above statement concerning Jesus Christ (although I know Arial will do just fine in her rebuttal to this!). So, keeping it simple: He did NOT inherit Adam's fallen nature!!! Being the Son of God, he was unmarred by Adam's fallen nature. Jesus Christ is our Passover Lamb; perfect, without spot or blemish. A "fallen nature" could NOT satisfy God's judgment - only one who walked in perfect obedience to the Father would satisfy God's judgment.

Read Exodus 12 - Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male . . . .
1 Cor. 5:7 . . . For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
1 Peter 2:22-24 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.
 
Greetings patience,
patience said:
He did NOT inherit Adam's fallen nature!!! Being the Son of God, he was unmarred by Adam's fallen nature. Jesus Christ is our Passover Lamb; perfect, without spot or blemish. A "fallen nature" could NOT satisfy God's judgment - only one who walked in perfect obedience to the Father would satisfy God's judgment.
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He inherited the fallen nature through Mary his mother. He never sinned, but overcame sin in all its forms and was thus the spotless lamb. He condemned sin (metonymy) in the flesh, not a different flesh, his flesh, the same nature as his brethren Romans 8:3, Hebrews 2:14.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
TrevorL said:
Greetings patience,

He inherited the fallen nature through Mary his mother. He never sinned, but overcame sin in all its forms and was thus the spotless lamb. He condemned sin (metonymy) in the flesh, not a different flesh, his flesh, the same nature as his brethren Romans 8:3, Hebrews 2:14.

Kind regards
Trevor
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How exactly did he inherit the fallen nature through Mary?
 
TrevorL said:
I believe that faith comes from hearing the Word of God Romans 10:17, not by some form of the Holy Spirit interpreting or enhancing the Word.
I was interested in the comments in the book "Here I Stand - A Life of Martin Luther" By Roland Bainton page 202:
"Thomas Muntzer was readily able to find support for his view of the Spirit in the Scripture itself, where it is said that "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" 2 Corinthians 3:6. Luther replied that of course the letter without the spirit is dead, but the two are no more to be divorced than the soul from the body. The real menace of Muntzer in Luther's eyes was that he destroyed the uniqueness of Christian revelation in the past by his elevation of revelation in the present. Luther for himself had had absolutely no experience of any contemporary revelation, and in times of despondency the advice to rely upon the spirit was for him a counsel of despair, since within he could only find utter blackness. In such moments he must have assurance in tangible form in a written record of the stupendous act of God in Christ. Luther freely avowed his weakness and his need of historic revelation. Therefore he would not listen to Muntzer. At this point lies much of the difference not only between Muntzer and Luther, but between modern liberal Protestantism and the religion of the founders."
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When the Bible and traditional Christianity in its doctrine say that the Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding, it is speaking about it exactly as Luther was. There is, I admit, a great misunderstanding of this among many Christians, and therefore, much misuse of it. As well as a degradation of the Holy Spirit, but from ignorance, and the desires of the flesh, not from malice. (I make exception here concerning wolves in sheep's clothing that have been given carte blanche in many churches.) And there really is no excuse for continuing in ignorance if Christians were to do their due diligence in study of His word.

This illumination of the Holy Spirit---teaching us truth---does not mean that whatever we think the word says is the Holy Spirit telling us that. He is always pointing to and exalting Christ. It is progressive, provided we pursue the word and seek the face of God in it. But it is always in and only in His word (the scriptures.) It is the word being revealed to our minds and entering our hearts. God is faithful in this, but we all so have a heavy responsibility to read and study. It is not by osmosis. There will be no contradictions of truth in the Bible and God revealing Himself in it will be consistent from beginning to end.
TrevorL said:
There is no justice in punishing the innocent and letting the guilty go free.
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And yet you say that is exactly what happened, for Jesus meeting His death on the cross as one cursed (everyone who hangs on a tree is cursed) even though He was innocent through and through, is punishment. And the Bible clearly tells us that it was God's will that this would come to pass. And especially if one considers a man with no nature but that of a man,a creature, takes that punishment. It would serve no divine purpose
TrevorL said:
One key is that Jesus was rightly related to death because he was a descendant of Adam and inherited his fallen nature.
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@patience did a good of setting that record straight. Jesus was not a descendant of Adam. His Father is God.
TrevorL said:
He inherited the fallen nature through Mary his mother. He never sinned, but overcame sin in all its forms and was thus the spotless lamb. He condemned sin (metonymy) in the flesh, not a different flesh, his flesh, the same nature as his brethren Romans 8:3, Hebrews 2:14.
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If Jesus had a fallen nature, He would have sinned. That is what fallen nature means. In our fallen nature our temptation to sin is both internal and external. The external stirs up our internal desires, and sometimes our internal desires seek out the sin. Sometimes we resist, sometimes we do not. When Jesus was tempted the temptations were external as we see when the devil tempted Him in the wilderness. The only desire Jesus had internally was to obey His Father that He might qualify as redeemer. It was incredible faith in the face of physical need for food and water, and in knowing what He was going to face down the road on the cross. His nature as a man had needs that could be used as temptation, and were.
 
Sissy said:
The promise was that He would be a descendant from the loins of David who was a descendant of Adam.
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The expression according to the flesh is often used in discussing Jesus' connection to the house of David. But I do not see Him as being born in Adam, at least not in relation to the fall---only man's creation before the fall. Bible says in Adam all have sinned, not Adam and Eve, so how this relates to Joseph not being His biological father but Mary being His mother, and the means of passage of the sin nature, I do not know. It is in God and far, far, outside my human mind to grasp. And God doesn't say. It is clear to me that Jesus did not inherit the sin nature, otherwise we would not need to be taken out of Adam in whom we were born, and reborn in Christ.

We are all literal descendants of Adam. Not just his sin nature. ;)
 
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