R
robert pate
Guest
The patriarchs were the worst bunch of sinners. The Bible does not hide the sins and the mistakes of God's people.
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S
Studyman
Guest
The patriarchs were the worst bunch of sinners. The Bible does not hide the sins and the mistakes of God's people.
This is a perfect place for me to "Try the spirits whether they be of God or not."
You are preaching to the world that the "patriarchs" were the worse bunch of sinners. That is your judgment.
But when I look into the Word of God, I find another Spirit.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Gen. 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Num. 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Num. 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
1 Kings 14:8 And rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it thee: and yet thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes;
So this is why Jesus inspired it to be written "test the spirits" because HE knew there would be religions of this world who would "come in His Name" and create their own religions, their own judgments and their own righteousness, and "many" would promote their religious philosophies. But we have the Oracles of God in our own homes and in our own minds. So we can always check popular religious philosophies against the actual Word of God.
So the religious philosophy which preaches "The patriarchs were the worst bunch of sinners" may be believed on by the masses. But neither God, nor His Son, ever directed us to judge HIS Friends, HIS Faithful Servants, HIS Chosen, with such a judgment.
So what spirit causes men to accuse the brethren like this? As the Scriptures show, it wasn't the Spirit of the God of the bible.
R
robert pate
Guest
The fact that the patriarchs were sinners does not take anything away from God and his righteousness. It is a miracle that God was able to bring forth the savior of the world through this line of sinners. They all failed to keep God's law, some more than others. King David was probably the worst, adultery and murder. He paid dearly for his sins.This is a perfect place for me to "Try the spirits whether they be of God or not."
You are preaching to the world that the "patriarchs" were the worse bunch of sinners. That is your judgment.
But when I look into the Word of God, I find another Spirit.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Gen. 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Num. 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Num. 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
1 Kings 14:8 And rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it thee: and yet thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes;
So this is why Jesus inspired it to be written "test the spirits" because HE knew there would be religions of this world who would "come in His Name" and create their own religions, their own judgments and their own righteousness, and "many" would promote their religious philosophies. But we have the Oracles of God in our own homes and in our own minds. So we can always check popular religious philosophies against the actual Word of God.
So the religious philosophy which preaches "The patriarchs were the worst bunch of sinners" may be believed on by the masses. But neither God, nor His Son, ever directed us to judge HIS Friends, HIS Faithful Servants, HIS Chosen, with such a judgment.
So what spirit causes men to accuse the brethren like this? As the Scriptures show, it wasn't the Spirit of the God of the bible.
S
shroom
Guest
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.The fact that the patriarchs were sinners does not take anything away from God and his righteousness. It is a miracle that God was able to bring forth the savior of the world through this line of sinners. They all failed to keep God's law, some more than others. King David was probably the worst, adultery and murder. He paid dearly for his sins.
There were FAR worse kings than David.
S
Studyman
Guest
The fact that the patriarchs were sinners does not take anything away from God and his righteousness. It is a miracle that God was able to bring forth the savior of the world through this line of sinners. They all failed to keep God's law, some more than others. King David was probably the worst, adultery and murder. He paid dearly for his sins.
You are making my point. You have your judgment, God has HIS. This has always been the case with the religions of this world. This is why it is so important to "Test the spirits" to see if they are from God, or the "other voice in the garden".
I posted God's Judgment, and you rejected it in favor of your own. Religions of this world do this with God's Sabbaths, His Definition of Holy and Unholy, HIS definition of Clean and unclean. They are not satisfied with God's instructions, so they create a god in the image of some heartthrob with long flowing hair that they can mold into a god which suits them.
For the record, those "worse sinners" you preach about, may have not resisted every temptation aimed at them. But they didn't reject God's Judgments and create their own. You have, the Pope does, the religions of this world does, but none of them did.
This is simply Truth.
I know you can't accept any of this. But it is a perspective worthy of sharing just the same.
As for me, God's Judgment of the Patriarchs is perfectly fine with me.
R
robert pate
Guest
God saw the patriarchs as perfect and complete "In Christ" because they had faith, but like Paul they were sinners.You are making my point. You have your judgment, God has HIS. This has always been the case with the religions of this world. This is why it is so important to "Test the spirits" to see if they are from God, or the "other voice in the garden".
I posted God's Judgment, and you rejected it in favor of your own. Religions of this world do this with God's Sabbaths, His Definition of Holy and Unholy, HIS definition of Clean and unclean. They are not satisfied with God's instructions, so they create a god in the image of some heartthrob with long flowing hair that they can mold into a god which suits them.
For the record, those "worse sinners" you preach about, may have not resisted every temptation aimed at them. But they didn't reject God's Judgments and create their own. You have, the Pope does, the religions of this world does, but none of them did.
This is simply Truth.
I know you can't accept any of this. But it is a perspective worthy of sharing just the same.
As for me, God's Judgment of the Patriarchs is perfectly fine with me.
S
Studyman
Guest
God saw the patriarchs as perfect and complete "In Christ" because they had faith, but like Paul they were sinners.
So then, the patriarchs were not "the worst bunch of sinners" according to God, isn't that what I said?
There is a difference between a man who falls while striving to walk in the "Way of the Lord", that God before ordained that we should walk in them. And a man who rejects the "Way of the Lord" in favor of the religious philosophies of this world..
This is why Zacharias and Simeon and Anna knew the Christ when HE came, but the Mainstream Preachers of that time, the Pharisees and Sadducee's did not.
Jesus warns about the future when "MANY" who WILL come in His Name, calling HIM Lord, Lord, but "work or practice iniquity". They all "Claim faith", and claim to know the Christ. But as Paul teaches;
Titus. 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
None of the Patriarchs of the Holy Scriptures fit this description. But there are countless "Ministers of Righteousness" in the world today, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that do. How can we know them? By testing the spirit which compels them to preach what they preach.
This is why, in my view, that we are instructed to "Test the spirits" so as not to be influenced or deceived by these "many".
I wouldn't want to be a part of the religion who preaches that the Patriarchs, who God gave as our examples of Faith, were no different, or even "worse" as you teach, than the Pharisees or the wicked Kings of Israel.
So Mr. Pate, let's settle this once and for all. The Patriarchs were NOT "the worst bunch of sinners" according to the Scriptures.
R
robert pate
Guest
The Patriarchs did some pretty bad things, can you imagine having sex with a man's wife and then having him killed? What about Abraham trying to pass of his wife off as his sister and then having sex with Haggar? The Arab nation came out of that fiasco. Because of Abrahams sin multitudes have died. Jacob the deceiver, stole Esau's birth right. The point is that... "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. Not even the Patriarch's. Paul never taught that fallen man has a righteousness that God will accept, nor should we.So then, the patriarchs were not "the worst bunch of sinners" according to God, isn't that what I said?
There is a difference between a man who falls while striving to walk in the "Way of the Lord", that God before ordained that we should walk in them. And a man who rejects the "Way of the Lord" in favor of the religious philosophies of this world..
This is why Zacharias and Simeon and Anna knew the Christ when HE came, but the Mainstream Preachers of that time, the Pharisees and Sadducee's did not.
Jesus warns about the future when "MANY" who WILL come in His Name, calling HIM Lord, Lord, but "work or practice iniquity". They all "Claim faith", and claim to know the Christ. But as Paul teaches;
Titus. 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
None of the Patriarchs of the Holy Scriptures fit this description. But there are countless "Ministers of Righteousness" in the world today, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that do. How can we know them? By testing the spirit which compels them to preach what they preach.
This is why, in my view, that we are instructed to "Test the spirits" so as not to be influenced or deceived by these "many".
I wouldn't want to be a part of the religion who preaches that the Patriarchs, who God gave as our examples of Faith, were no different, or even "worse" as you teach, than the Pharisees or the wicked Kings of Israel.
So Mr. Pate, let's settle this once and for all. The Patriarchs were NOT "the worst bunch of sinners" according to the Scriptures.
S
Studyman
Guest
The Patriarchs did some pretty bad things, can you imagine having sex with a man's wife and then having him killed? What about Abraham trying to pass of his wife off as his sister and then having sex with Haggar? The Arab nation came out of that fiasco. Because of Abrahams sin multitudes have died. Jacob the deceiver, stole Esau's birth right. The point is that... "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. Not even the Patriarch's. Paul never taught that fallen man has a righteousness that God will accept, nor should we.
I get that you must defend your religious philosophy. What I hope to show others, is that popular as this philosophy is, it is of this world, and not from the Holy Scriptures. Consider the Psalms verse you partially quoted.
Psalms 14:The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Who are God's People here Mr. Pate? "Fools", "children of men", or Children of God?
Modern religions use this chapter to promote "total Depravity" which is a philosophy that preaches the falsehood that in all the Law and Prophets, God was not able to bring even "ONE" person into righteousness. Basically furthering the philosophy of the serpent who convinced Eve God lied to her. It is a seductive religion and has snared "many" as Prophesied.
But if we can open our eyes and ears, and simply examine for our self what this Psalms is truly saying, as Paul did, you will find he isn't saying what you attribute to him at all.
What is sad about these kinds of discussions, is that in most cases, one or both parties are simply defending their own religion, and are not willing to have an honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures, which includes answering questions. My hope is that yu might not be as one of these, and answer my questions.
So i will ask again, in this Psalms, "Who are God's People here Mr. Pate? "Fools", "children of men", or Children of God?
5 There were they in great fear:
Who are the "They" here Mr. Pate? "Fools", "children of men", or Children of God
for God is in the generation of the righteous.
So you are preaching there is "None Righteous", but the Spirit of Christ on David, is teaching no such thing. Not only are there "righteous men", but God is in them.
There are 2 different spirit's at work here. One is promoting the popular religious philosophy of this world that God was not able to bring even one man into righteousness. The other, the Holy Scriptures, are promoting a Biblical Truth that God was able to bring a generation into righteousness.
This is why it is important to "Test the spirits". By claiming that submitting to God, as Jesus did, can not bring about righteousness is shaming all those who placed their Faith in this God.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Modern religions of this world does the same exact thing in Romans 3.
They are claiming that the Holy Spirit of the Risen Christ was not capable of bringing even "ONE" person in righteousness even after over 14 years. Like in Psalms, they refuse to acknowledge that Paul is describing the mainstream preachers of his time, who had the oracles of God, but didn't believe them. Those religious men who were persecuting and accusing the Faithful of things which were not true "whose condemnation was just".
"Many" who come in Christ's Name, actually preach that even after 14 years, Paul is saying "EVERYONE" is still "under sin". So the Death and Resurrection of Jesus accomplished nothing, Pentecost and the Holy Spirit accomplished nothing, repentance, and Faith accomplished nothing.
And those people who placed their Faith in God, AND his Son Jesus are:
Rom. 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Believing This religious philosophy you are promoting, that neither God, nor His Son, were able to bring men into righteousness, may be the reason who you believe and teach that the Examples of Faith God Gave us in HIS Word, "were the worse sinners".
My hope in that you might "test the spirits" of this doctrine, to see if it is from the God of the Bible, or religious man.
R
robert pate
Guest
There are two kinds of righteousness. There is the righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God. No one possess the righteousness of God except Jesus Christ. Jesus is the epitome of God's Holy Law. Man has no righteousness. He is born a sinner, Psalm 51:5 and dies a sinner. God does not accept the righteousness of man, never has, never will. One of the reasons is that man is corrupt because he is related to Adam, Romans 5:12.I get that you must defend your religious philosophy. What I hope to show others, is that popular as this philosophy is, it is of this world, and not from the Holy Scriptures. Consider the Psalms verse you partially quoted.
Psalms 14:The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Who are God's People here Mr. Pate? "Fools", "children of men", or Children of God?
Modern religions use this chapter to promote "total Depravity" which is a philosophy that preaches the falsehood that in all the Law and Prophets, God was not able to bring even "ONE" person into righteousness. Basically furthering the philosophy of the serpent who convinced Eve God lied to her. It is a seductive religion and has snared "many" as Prophesied.
But if we can open our eyes and ears, and simply examine for our self what this Psalms is truly saying, as Paul did, you will find he isn't saying what you attribute to him at all.
What is sad about these kinds of discussions, is that in most cases, one or both parties are simply defending their own religion, and are not willing to have an honest, unbiased examination of Scriptures, which includes answering questions. My hope is that yu might not be as one of these, and answer my questions.
So i will ask again, in this Psalms, "Who are God's People here Mr. Pate? "Fools", "children of men", or Children of God?
5 There were they in great fear:
Who are the "They" here Mr. Pate? "Fools", "children of men", or Children of God
for God is in the generation of the righteous.
So you are preaching there is "None Righteous", but the Spirit of Christ on David, is teaching no such thing. Not only are there "righteous men", but God is in them.
There are 2 different spirit's at work here. One is promoting the popular religious philosophy of this world that God was not able to bring even one man into righteousness. The other, the Holy Scriptures, are promoting a Biblical Truth that God was able to bring a generation into righteousness.
This is why it is important to "Test the spirits". By claiming that submitting to God, as Jesus did, can not bring about righteousness is shaming all those who placed their Faith in this God.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Modern religions of this world does the same exact thing in Romans 3.
They are claiming that the Holy Spirit of the Risen Christ was not capable of bringing even "ONE" person in righteousness even after over 14 years. Like in Psalms, they refuse to acknowledge that Paul is describing the mainstream preachers of his time, who had the oracles of God, but didn't believe them. Those religious men who were persecuting and accusing the Faithful of things which were not true "whose condemnation was just".
"Many" who come in Christ's Name, actually preach that even after 14 years, Paul is saying "EVERYONE" is still "under sin". So the Death and Resurrection of Jesus accomplished nothing, Pentecost and the Holy Spirit accomplished nothing, repentance, and Faith accomplished nothing.
And those people who placed their Faith in God, AND his Son Jesus are:
Rom. 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Believing This religious philosophy you are promoting, that neither God, nor His Son, were able to bring men into righteousness, may be the reason who you believe and teach that the Examples of Faith God Gave us in HIS Word, "were the worse sinners".
My hope in that you might "test the spirits" of this doctrine, to see if it is from the God of the Bible, or religious man.
Christians do not become righteous when they accept Christ as their savior. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the "First fruits of the Spirit" or the down payment of the Holy Spirit. This does not make them righteous. However, God sees them as righteous, because he sees them "In Christ". Outside of Christ they are still sinners. It is only after the Return of Christ that they will be glorified and become totally righteous. Until then they are still here on this sinful planet in their unredeemed Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.
I never did see myself as a sinner until I accepted Christ as my savior. It was then that the Holy Spirit revealed to me what a terrible sinner that I was. The same thing happened to Paul. Paul was a self-righteous Pharisee until he became a Christian, it was then that he saw himself as "The Chief of sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. God brings men into righteousness, not by doing something in them, but by putting them to death and resurrecting them in Jesus Christ, Romans 6:6. They are made to be "new creations" in Jesus Christ, but not completely. As long as they are here on this earth in their Adamic bodies they will sin.
S
Studyman
Guest
There are two kinds of righteousness. There is the righteousness of man and then there is the righteousness of God. No one possess the righteousness of God except Jesus Christ. Jesus is the epitome of God's Holy Law. Man has no righteousness. He is born a sinner, Psalm 51:5 and dies a sinner. God does not accept the righteousness of man, never has, never will. One of the reasons is that man is corrupt because he is related to Adam, Romans 5:12.
Christians do not become righteous when they accept Christ as their savior. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the "First fruits of the Spirit" or the down payment of the Holy Spirit. This does not make them righteous. However, God sees them as righteous, because he sees them "In Christ". Outside of Christ they are still sinners. It is only after the Return of Christ that they will be glorified and become totally righteous. Until then they are still here on this sinful planet in their unredeemed Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.
I never did see myself as a sinner until I accepted Christ as my savior. It was then that the Holy Spirit revealed to me what a terrible sinner that I was. The same thing happened to Paul. Paul was a self-righteous Pharisee until he became a Christian, it was then that he saw himself as "The Chief of sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. God brings men into righteousness, not by doing something in them, but by putting them to death and resurrecting them in Jesus Christ, Romans 6:6. They are made to be "new creations" in Jesus Christ, but not completely. As long as they are here on this earth in their Adamic bodies they will sin.
I expected that you would completely ignore my post, and the Scriptures I posted, and the questions I asked. This is because you are here to promote and justify your own religious philosophy. While i am here to discuss and examine the Holy Scriptures seeking their true meaning.
Nevertheless, I am hopeful God's Word does not return void.
R
robert pate
Guest
No, I am here to promote "The Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ" that calls all doctrines and religions into question. I consider all holiness doctrines such as Catholicism and other such religions to be anti-Christ. I believe Paul, Paul said, "There is NONE righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. All that enter into the judgment professing their righteousness will disappear in a puff of smoke. God is holy beyond human comprehension. The only way anyone is going to be saved is because of the merits of Jesus Christ. Jesus justifies the ungodly (us) Romans 4:5 and reconciles them to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. He does that by offering to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his holy law and atoning for their sins. There is no other way to be saved. We are saved and justified by his righteousness and not our own.I expected that you would completely ignore my post, and the Scriptures I posted, and the questions I asked. This is because you are here to promote and justify your own religious philosophy. While i am here to discuss and examine the Holy Scriptures seeking their true meaning.
Nevertheless, I am hopeful God's Word does not return void.