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"Thin-terpretations"--passages poorly supported in popular usage

What is the matter with you? Sheep like still water to drink from. Every raiser of sheep knows this and makes sure they have still water to drink from be it trough or pool or pond. Your are stuck on a translation that you say "is best rendered" which means it is only best if it is applicable. Which it isn't in this case as the lying down in green pastures, still waters, restoration of the soul, and in paths of righteousness, all speak of peace and restfulness, and provision. We get to the protection with the rod and the staff. Bite the bullet of oops, and be led "past" the hole you are digging.

The very setting of abundance of all that is needed for life for sheep, renders a desert setting preposterous as the analogy.

You are welcome to write to the producer of the missions doc THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW. Van Der Meer was the last name of the host of the doc. It's about 15 years back.

It is not nearly as easy to track down individual authors who contribute to theological dictionaries like TDNT, etc.
 
Do you know what circular thinking is: it's when we say something is true because we say so, because a 2nd hand source said so.
Hmmm.
If you have actual experience with Bedouin sheep farmers or the Fulani of N Nigeria (edge of Sahara)--do speak up.
This then is what makes you the one whose say so becomes fact? Does the Psalm say anything about Bedouin sheep farmers or the Fulani? Is that possibly completely beside the point of the analogy being made? The focus there is water to drink and in your scenario no water is even provided, just avoided. And let's say they did come upon brackish water---is this not where the rod and the staff would "turn" the sheep away from it and lead them to the good water----which btw, seeings as sheep have a preference for still water and fast flowing and deep water is deadly should they fall in----would be still water? I am curious as to whether you have discovered the analogy and found it a great comfort in your life? Or do you still think this Psalm is about sheep and toxic water?
 
There are many analogies in the poem, they last about 1 line each time. There are no dinner tables being set up in the pastures. It is a one-line analogy. So is the toxicity of some water in the desert that we need to be lead past/away from. "Lead us not into temptation."
Could be.
 
You are welcome to write to the producer of the missions doc THAT THE WORLD MAY KNOW. Van Der Meer was the last name of the host of the doc. It's about 15 years back.

It is not nearly as easy to track down individual authors who contribute to theological dictionaries like TDNT, etc.
I actually don't need to do that in order to determine what Psalm 23 is saying, and have it be a great comfort and peace, knowing this is who my Good Shepherd is, and didn't need to even when first I read it. I do not need Van Der Meer to give a pointless lesson on toxic water and the "best" rendering of "beside" in his opinion. I would consider it the worst rendering in this case as then the passage would read, "He leads me past still waters" and have no idea why He would do that. On the other hand His rod and staff would still be a comfort to me should I encounter toxic water. He would keep me from drinking it. It is something that really does not require the specificity of thinking about. But to each is own. Keep thinking about it and defending it until you get absolutely zero from the Psalm.
 
I actually don't need to do that in order to determine what Psalm 23 is saying, and have it be a great comfort and peace, knowing this is who my Good Shepherd is, and didn't need to even when first I read it. I do not need Van Der Meer to give a pointless lesson on toxic water and the "best" rendering of "beside" in his opinion. I would consider it the worst rendering in this case as then the passage would read, "He leads me past still waters" and have no idea why He would do that. On the other hand His rod and staff would still be a comfort to me should I encounter toxic water. He would keep me from drinking it. It is something that really does not require the specificity of thinking about. But to each is own. Keep thinking about it and defending it until you get absolutely zero from the Psalm.

You can't be serious. Zero? It is beautiful in this other rendering because it deals with the hardness of the world in spots, just like "in the presence of my enemies" is about hard reality, too.

I'm sure there are other places where you have heard a term overturned or gone end for end and realized that translations are mortal and sometimes feeble.

For 10 years, Luther thought the righteousness of God in Romans was his exacting and terrible wrath. Only by immersion in language did he realize it was not that at all, but was actually the most important act or work of God for him! It was God loving us and giving himself up for us!

That's why we must pay close attention to actual language study.

For another: for a long time I thought the harlot of Revelation was the out and out prostitute, brash, brazen etc. But the term is that of a Levitical priests wife! Whoa that really changes the flavor, does it not? And it explains the stoning, which is prescribed in Leviticus, etc. It is also a reason why it connects to Judaism by analogy.
 
To all friends here, there are some 6 other examples. This does not have to get stuck on just one.
 
I actually don't need to do that in order to determine what Psalm 23 is saying, and have it be a great comfort and peace, knowing this is who my Good Shepherd is, and didn't need to even when first I read it. I do not need Van Der Meer to give a pointless lesson on toxic water and the "best" rendering of "beside" in his opinion. I would consider it the worst rendering in this case as then the passage would read, "He leads me past still waters" and have no idea why He would do that. On the other hand His rod and staff would still be a comfort to me should I encounter toxic water. He would keep me from drinking it. It is something that really does not require the specificity of thinking about. But to each is own. Keep thinking about it and defending it until you get absolutely zero from the Psalm.


When you see that still water in a desert margin area are often toxic, then going past them makes perfect sense.
 
Hmmm.

This then is what makes you the one whose say so becomes fact? Does the Psalm say anything about Bedouin sheep farmers or the Fulani? Is that possibly completely beside the point of the analogy being made? The focus there is water to drink and in your scenario no water is even provided, just avoided. And let's say they did come upon brackish water---is this not where the rod and the staff would "turn" the sheep away from it and lead them to the good water----which btw, seeings as sheep have a preference for still water and fast flowing and deep water is deadly should they fall in----would be still water? I am curious as to whether you have discovered the analogy and found it a great comfort in your life? Or do you still think this Psalm is about sheep and toxic water?


re toxicity. Yes it is a very very good reminder that God directs us away from all the toxic stuff in life.

btw you just proved my point:
is this not where the rod and the staff would "turn" the sheep away from it and lead them to the good water?
My point exactly, thank you. Away from the toxic, to the good. "To guide past toxic water"
 
Hmmm.

This then is what makes you the one whose say so becomes fact? Does the Psalm say anything about Bedouin sheep farmers or the Fulani? Is that possibly completely beside the point of the analogy being made? The focus there is water to drink and in your scenario no water is even provided, just avoided. And let's say they did come upon brackish water---is this not where the rod and the staff would "turn" the sheep away from it and lead them to the good water----which btw, seeings as sheep have a preference for still water and fast flowing and deep water is deadly should they fall in----would be still water? I am curious as to whether you have discovered the analogy and found it a great comfort in your life? Or do you still think this Psalm is about sheep and toxic water?


Most traditional sheep herding in the middle east is by Bedouins. That is why they can be asked about such topics, unless you think the terrain, animals, geography, climate, etc is so different now that there is no point in asking them anything.

The Fulani raise sheep and goats on the edge of another major desert. You do realize Judea was on the edge of a major desert, yes?

The cattle drives in the old American West went through deserts from one agricultural area to another. The point man (the front rider) would scout for toxic water and shoot over the heads of the herd to make them turn away. Ever see an old West painting of a skull and horns laying in the desert, and maybe some bones. They prob tried to drink bad water.
 
Hmmm.

This then is what makes you the one whose say so becomes fact? Does the Psalm say anything about Bedouin sheep farmers or the Fulani? Is that possibly completely beside the point of the analogy being made? The focus there is water to drink and in your scenario no water is even provided, just avoided. And let's say they did come upon brackish water---is this not where the rod and the staff would "turn" the sheep away from it and lead them to the good water----which btw, seeings as sheep have a preference for still water and fast flowing and deep water is deadly should they fall in----would be still water? I am curious as to whether you have discovered the analogy and found it a great comfort in your life? Or do you still think this Psalm is about sheep and toxic water?


The newest theological dictionaries is what helps us find these things. The committees of our translations are scholars who work on TDs and on literary lexicons. Just look up a few of the names.
 
The newest theological dictionaries is what helps us find these things. The committees of our translations are scholars who work on TDs and on literary lexicons. Just look up a few of the names.
You jumped on a scholarly bandwagon when you used the water of Psalm 23 as one of your thin-translations. Thinking, I guess, that all that anyone else had ever thought about the Psalm or taken from it, was wrong. In so doing, you slanted the Psalm one direction that it was not going (yet) and removed some of what it was saying at that particular time (with those poetic and analogous phrases).That these scholars and translator supperceded all the intellect of ancient times and that if we were going to be absolutely, technically correct (which analogies and poetry are not meant to be, but rather to convey a concept or idea) we are to now see not peace and loving perfect provision that takes each individual into account, in the still waters, but rather dangers that we are kept from. Even though that aspect of God's care is put forth with the same sheep/shepherd analogy in the next verses. We need know neither the nature of sheep or the conditions of the Bedouin desert to extract the meaning and purpose of Psalm 23. There was no place for it in your examples of thin-translations.

More than anything else it was put forth from an exalting of superior human intellect and an appearance of having it.
 
Most traditional sheep herding in the middle east is by Bedouins. That is why they can be asked about such topics, unless you think the terrain, animals, geography, climate, etc is so different now that there is no point in asking them anything.
The Psalm isn't speaking of geography and such. It is speaking as God as a Shepherd of His people and comparing to what a literal shepherd does for his flock. An analogy, not of literal terrain but of the heart of God towards His flock. Where the Pharisees were chastised for adhering to the letter of the Law never seeing the spirit of it, so too it is possible to focus on the letter of concepts and ideas and bypass the spirit of it. Place the emphasis and focus in the wrong place iow.
The Fulani raise sheep and goats on the edge of another major desert. You do realize Judea was on the edge of a major desert, yes?
The Psalm is not about a literal place. It is about shepherds and their flocks as an analogy of God and His people.Sometimes historical setting is helpful is fully grasping a scripture---sometimes it is totally unnecessary. Sometimes differing translations of a word are helpful, sometimes they muddy the waters of the idea that is being presented. But if you wish to go with the meaning being better served by past toxic waters, there is no harm in it. And there is no need to try and place the same restriction of everyone as though they are ignorant if they do not do as you do.
TThe cattle drives in the old American West went through deserts from one agricultural area to another. The point man (the front rider) would scout for toxic water and shoot over the heads of the herd to make them turn away. Ever see an old West painting of a skull and horns laying in the desert, and maybe some bones. They prob tried to drink bad water
No one is disputing that a good shepherd and a good cattle driver will keep the flock or herd from drinking toxic water. :rolleyes:
 
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