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The Trinity

Do you really believe your excuse is legit for Jesus' followers? Escpecially leader of professed follower of christ?

what they did was exactly the same as pharisees.

Do you really cannot see it?
Are you not metaphorically beheading all trinitarians in the public square? Burning them at the stake? Hanging them from a tree? If it were the law of the land, would you not be supporting this in actuality? And why is it you cannot even actually address your own hypocrisy that I pointed out? Instead you change the subject and continue on with your beheading, burning and hanging? Why do you not listen to Jesus?
 
Hypocrites are you guys and you make excuse about it.

Jesus would never condone any killing especially using His name.

You dont even realize how many of His word you are disregarding by your endorsing Calvin's killing.
First of all I never endorsed what Calvin did or thought in that killing. You only say that to avoid facing the facts of your own hypocrisy. You think you take the high ground by using the name of my Lord, to endorse your own hypocrisy, never realizing how any of His words you disregard. Which is a lot of them. You even deny His very words endorsing Paul as an apostle.
 
Are you not metaphorically beheading all trinitarians in the public square? Burning them at the stake? Hanging them from a tree? If it were the law of the land, would you not be supporting this in actuality? And why is it you cannot even actually address your own hypocrisy that I pointed out? Instead you change the subject and continue on with your beheading, burning and hanging? Why do you not listen to Jesus?
excuses excuses excuses.
 
excuses excuses excuses.
The one making excuses, and excuses for themselves, is you. You cannot even face headon what is being said. Even though Jesus would no doubt say the same thing to you. He called a hypocrite and hypocrite.
 
The one making excuses, and excuses for themselves, is you. You cannot even face headon what is being said. Even though Jesus would no doubt say the same thing to you. He called a hypocrite and hypocrite.
I feel so sad for you.
 
Greetings again Arial,
Want to play what if? If the doctrines that were legally met with death in Calvin's time had been reversed, and it was unitarians who had the reins of church and state, and it was trinitarians who were being put to death as heretics
No, I do not want to play that game as my particular fellowship does not partake in politics. If we could trace all that have been of the same doctrines throughout the persecuting periods of the Catholic and Protestant Churches, then we would be among the persecuted minority and we do not take up arms to defend ourselves. For example I have had much sympathy for some elements of the early Anabaptists who were persecuted by both the Catholics and Protestants.
So what?! What has that to do with the teachings and unusual ability for systematic (consistent and logical and God centered throughout) theological exegesis of scripture?
Actually I have been to some extent awed by the volume of his writing and influence, but to be honest I have not read or studied any of his works. There seems to be a division between Calvinism and Arminianism (I had to check the spelling by using another forum that has 957 different threads on this dispute - the spell checker accepted Calvinism but did not recognise Arminianism). I have simply not studied Calvinism because of the concept that certain elect are specially selected, and that the rest will burn in hell for eternity. I also reject the Trinity.

The only time that I have heard some advocacy of predestination was when my third cousin in my meeting started to talk about some such concepts. His father in law who is our most senior and thorough going expositor could not persuade him, and my cousin had also a senior friend, one of our well known expositors, in another meeting who apparently could make no progress. I am the librarian for my meeting and I did a search in our literature, and found two items, and gave my cousin a copy of the second. Some months later the expositor from the other meeting thanked me for overcoming the problem, and he was unaware that I had only given a one page summary of the subject to my cousin. I am not sure how much the article helps but I will add it as a separate post.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Arial,
What has that to do with the teachings and unusual ability for systematic (consistent and logical and God centered throughout) theological exegesis of scripture?
Here is the article concerning Calvinism:

Calvinism and the Bible Doctrine of Predestination HA Twelves

The Christadelphian Volume 83 1946 Page 162

THE first major protagonists in the predestination controversy, which has raged for centuries, were Augustine and Pelagius. It was Augustine’s point of view that Calvin later adopted, as did also, in their turn, Thomas Aquinas, the Dominicans and the Jansenists in the Catholic Church, Luther with slight modifications, and, among the Methodists, Whitefield. Calvin was opposed by Arminius, whose views correspond more closely with what we believe to be the Bible doctrine than those of the original Pelagius. Others on the Pelagian side were the Jesuits and Wesley.

The Augustinian and Calvinist position stresses man’s utter inability to will or do any good, and insists that God alone can save. He saves by means of grace, which is “effectual” (it does all that is necessary), and “irresistible” (if God chooses to make you the recipient of grace, you have no say in the matter). This irresistibility of grace for the elect entailed predestination: from eternity God had chosen some to receive it and gain life, and had passed over all others. In this God was not unjust, as death was the desert of all. It follows logically that, if Mr. Smith is of the elect, no sin that Mr. Smith commits, however heinous or deliberate, can prevent his gaining eternal life. It was here that Luther diverged from Calvin, maintaining that the grace could be resisted with resulting condemnation. Of course, Calvin would say that, in fact, the elect would not resist it. Calvinism, then, emphasizes basically the absolute, inscrutable and sovereign will of God. Its particular brand of predestination derives from that.

On the other hand, Pelagius emphasized man’s free will, grace coming in as a help, of which man’s striving made him worthy. Arminius insists that repentance and faith are the divinely decreed conditions of life and predestination is merely God’s determination to give eternal life to those whom He foresaw as fulfilling those conditions. (This doubtless is the correct interpretation of Rom. 8; 29–30.) He would, I think, have agreed with this saying of Luther: “—God, foreseeing who will and who will not resist the grace offered, predestinates to life those who are foreseen as believers”.

So much for a brief statement of the rival positions. To attempt in a few minutes even to suggest the Biblical doctrine and where it differs from Calvinism is a rather presumptuous venture. We must at all costs avoid an over-simplification of the problem for our own greater convenience in discussion. We will only try to clarify the issue, and to point a way to the right attitude towards the subject, not even listing the many passages relevant to the various points.

First let us state very briefly what seems to be the two major considerations to be borne in mind:

(1) The Calvinistic doctrine of absolute election, with its implication that many from eternity are passed over and therefore predestined to death, is untenable for Bible believers. We are told unequivocally that God “is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3 : 9). He “will have all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2 : 4). “Whosoever will” is invited to take of the “water of life freely” (Rev. 22: 17). Whatever our final interpretation may be, it must leave room for a God who does not will the death of thousands, but the life of all.

(2) Calvinism insists on pushing its argument to a logical conclusion with results that shock our moral sense and nullify all moral exhortation. The Bible gives the data and does not offer a logical solution. Where it comes nearest to doing so, in Romans 8 and 9, it comes near to Calvinism. Its general teaching, as also the particular teaching of Romans finally, is just the presentation of the data, without a neatly parcelled and pigeon-holed explanation of what the divine wisdom knows is basically an unsolvable problem for finite minds.

The data are chiefly three:

1. God’s Foreknowledge. This is limitless. Limit it, and your definition of God needs alteration.

2. God’s Omnipotence. Its exercise might be restrained, but only by God’s will, by His “longsuffering”.

3. Man’s Free Will. It is not question-begging to include this as a datum. To deny free will is to play fast and loose with our own daily experience; to put the blame for Adam’s fall not on serpent, Eve or Adam, but on God Himself; to make Moses a play actor when he appeals to Israel to choose life rather than death; to tear page after page from the prophets as so much beating of the air; to tell the Lord Jesus Christ he was wasting his time in his appeals to come unto him; to erase from Apostolic writings everything that suggests the need for moral exhortations or offers it; and finally—though the sentence could be almost indefinitely prolonged—to cancel out entirely the first condition of life and all the clarion calls to it from Matthew to Revelation, namely, repentance.

Of these three data, in strict logic, (1) and (2) make (3) a mere human illusion. If God has absolute power fully exercised, then what He foresees He also causes or allows, and my freedom in things small or great is only a fancy of mine, and God’s punishment of sin becomes a mockery of justice by merely human standards. It is the objection of strict logic that is anticipated in Rom. 9: 19. Note that Paul’s answer does not deny the logic. All he says is: “You must accept it”. But here he comes nearest to the Calvinist position, emphasizing God’s sovereign will (Rom. 9 : 14–24).

There is one other thing we can do with our data. We can say that God has limited His omnipotence to the extent of allowing man free will; in other words that datum 3 is only possible on the assumption of datum 2 having been limited. This leaves us with a slightly easier problem, still finally unsolvable by our finite minds, yet more easily imaginable. It is just possible to imagine that God may from eternity have foreseen all the free choices of free human wills without in any way interfering with their freedom. This will not do in logic, of course: a foreseen free choice must be made, therefore its freedom is illusory. But the whole plan of redemption, with the ideas of law, probation, sin, repentance, prophetic warning and appeal, God’s repenting of evil proposed, His longsuffering, the whole history of man’s declension and rebellion and the prospect of God’s final vindication, do necessitate something, which, for want of better terms, we may call a voluntary, temporary restraint of God’s power.

Here then is our choice: either deny free will and be logical (but also foolish, inasmuch as our choosing to deny free will cannot be free either—we just couldn’t help it) or accept both God’s foreknowledge and our own free will without demanding their logical reconciliation, but retaining for our help towards right choices the whole of God’s Word. This latter is the Bible’s own position. the passages where most emphasis is laid upon God’s sovereign will are followed in the same letter by hosts of passages which demand our belief in free will (Rom. 10: 12, 17; 11 : 14 , 18–19, 22, 25; 12 :1–3, etc.).

The Bible position then is this:

(i) It insists upon God’s foreknowledge. He knows which of us will be in the Kingdom, because He has foreseen which of us will be believers and trust in His mercy.

(ii) It insists—nay, its very existence demands—man’s free will, to receive or reject God’s grace, and after claiming to have received it, either to grow in it or to do despite to it and to fall from it.

(iii) It admits that, if you demand logic, even your reception of grace is of God’s sovereign mercy.

(iv) It sets as an aim before the Christian absolute identity of will with the Father, but relates the experience of the Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom. 7) and even of Christ himself in the garden, to give the sober reminder that for us that aim is not fully attained. There is always with us conflict.

(v) It also sets before us as an ideal, confidence in our final salvation by God’s grace, to which Paul sometimes attained (2 Tim. 4 : 8) so that salvation can be spoken of as already accomplished (Rom. 8: 30). If that confidence eludes us, because of a sense of our unworthiness, we may be encouraged by remembering that “Ifs” abound even in the most confident parts of Paul’s letters, and that the confidence sometimes eluded him. But we should also remember that it is not a question of our being “good enough” (none of us is that) but of the measure of our trust and hope in His mercy.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
This is not what was being addressed in my posts--but whatever you need to do to avoid addressing it. To unpack all that you put forth in this post will take some time and a lot of space. Therefore, I will break it into parts.
The Augustinian and Calvinist position stresses man’s utter inability to will or do any good,
This is grossly misstated. I have not read all these two have said on the subject, but from my understanding it is not denied that man can and does do good things. The rub is in is it good enough and consistent enough to obtain to the requirement of not falling short of the glory of God? And the answer is no. Even when the unredeemed man gives the appearance of righteousness, or even of seeking God, wrong motives are at its core. He is seeking to gain something for himself from God. If the Bible says that all are at enmity with God by nature, then that is true.
He saves by means of grace, which is “effectual” (it does all that is necessary), and “irresistible” (if God chooses to make you the recipient of grace, you have no say in the matter).
It does all that is necessary for a person to believe in the person and work of Christ, in however an elemental way, but the faith is there, and man has responsibility to then do those necessary things that cause faith to grow, all of which are contained in His word, and seeking Him. It is not a matter of having no say in it, for who, when believing the person and work of Jesus would reject it? It is grace, because without this intervention, (regeneration, new birth) by God, we are unable to make an informed decision as our will bound in sin as it is, cannot discern spiritual things. There are ample scriptures from the beginning to the end of the Bible that place God as the One who changes hearts, opens eyes and ears, as well as hardens and blinds. We cannot simply ignore those things.
Of course, Calvin would say that, in fact, the elect would not resist it. Calvinism, then, emphasizes basically the absolute, inscrutable and sovereign will of God.
All one has to do to know this to be true is read God's own words to Job. But His sovereignty and governance of His creation is announced by Him countless times and in countless ways. Admittedly it is impossible for the finite mind to comprehend this or imagine how it is so, and that even though it is so, man's responsibility, and as a creature who has a will, runs right alongside of it. Neither intersecting nor doing away with the other. It is plain throughout scripture, and the apostles had no problem with it, nor did they feel the need to parse it into parts. We are told who God is, and we are told who we are in relation to Him, and what is expected and required of us. That is all we need concern ourselves with.
On the other hand, Pelagius emphasized man’s free will, grace coming in as a help, of which man’s striving made him worthy. Arminius insists that repentance and faith are the divinely decreed conditions of life and predestination is merely God’s determination to give eternal life to those whom He foresaw as fulfilling those conditions. (This doubtless is the correct interpretation of Rom. 8; 29–30.)
And here the tone completely changes as the author enters his own land. And it this statement were true, we would have a God who operates in redemption from a place of knowledge but not power or anything else, such as love. In effect He gives to those who earn. And grace is a tool, not a glory and power and bountiful love.
 
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