Ol' Barn
Member
I have observed exactly the same thing, except that the Southern Baptist Church, in which I grew up, was starkly divided on the issue whereas the church to which I now belong has virtually no such disparity.
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Cessationism versus Continuationism - The fallacy of "Signs Gifts".
- Thread starter SteVen
- Start date
I have observed exactly the same thing, except that the Southern Baptist Church, in which I grew up, was starkly divided on the issue whereas the church to which I now belong has virtually no such disparity.
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I was in Southern Baptist churches and attended a Southern Baptist seminary, all in the early to mid-1970s, and don't recall any discussion of the issue at all. I would say most of us took for granted that some gifts continued but that the extreme manifestations were mostly or entirely bogus, pretty much because they looked mostly or entirely bogus. (I attended one Pentecostal speaking-in-tongues session, could hardly keep from giggling, and was astounded anyone took it seriously.)I have observed exactly the same thing, except that the Southern Baptist Church, in which I grew up, was starkly divided on the issue whereas the church to which I now belong has virtually no such disparity.
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An SBC blog that discusses the more recent debate seems to describe what I experienced:
The simple fact is that a small number of us in this Baptist debate are at the end of the Cessationist side of the continuum, and almost none of us are at the continuationist extreme. Even some who argued counter to my position admitted they do not completely reject the charismata or the subjective voice of God. I have argued forcefully for the subjective voice of God still being present today and that the Spirit still manifests himself in the church today, as he wills, in the ways described in 1 Corinthians 12. But if I had to plot myself on a graph, I would be much closer to the cessationist extreme on many issues than I would be on the continuationist extreme.
The Cessationism/Continuationism Debate: Where We Agree (and Disagree)
As is the case in most blogging debates, by the time we have discussed something for a few rounds, there is an assumption that the two sides are wildly far apart. That is the nature of blogging. We…
sbcvoices.com
The extreme manifestations seem to me to be what the debate is all about. Hardline cessationism almost forces one into the corner into which Aunty Jane paints herself: "Even if I myself experience the gifts, it's all demonic."
Ol' Barn
Member
I'm afraid that in my 34 years as a Seventh-day Adventist I've collected quite a bit of information about the Millerite/Adventist "family tree"—much more than one would be likely to find in a Wikipedia article.
There is nothing in the quote above that associates the Branch Davidians with the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists—the defacto Central administrative headquarters of the worldwide fellowship of Seventh-day Adventists—or their statement of beliefs.
I suppose either side of such an argument could be convincingly accused of urging semantics, but the General Conference seems to (wisely, in my opinion) practice a "pick your battles" kind of philosophy when it comes to legal trademark claims, not wishing to cross over into infringing on others' religious liberty any more than is necessary.
All who wish to do so may look into the matter further or more closely.
I don't wish to get too far off-topic.
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Ol' Barn
Member
I was in Southern Baptist churches and attended a Southern Baptist seminary, all in the early to mid-1970s, and don't recall any discussion of the issue at all. I would say most of us took for granted that some gifts continued but that the extreme manifestations were mostly or entirely bogus, pretty much because they looked mostly or entirely bogus. (I attended one Pentecostal speaking-in-tongues session, could hardly keep from giggling, and was astounded anyone took it seriously.)
An SBC blog that discusses the more recent debate seems to describe what I experienced:
The simple fact is that a small number of us in this Baptist debate are at the end of the Cessationist side of the continuum, and almost none of us are at the continuationist extreme. Even some who argued counter to my position admitted they do not completely reject the charismata or the subjective voice of God. I have argued forcefully for the subjective voice of God still being present today and that the Spirit still manifests himself in the church today, as he wills, in the ways described in 1 Corinthians 12. But if I had to plot myself on a graph, I would be much closer to the cessationist extreme on many issues than I would be on the continuationist extreme.The Cessationism/Continuationism Debate: Where We Agree (and Disagree)
As is the case in most blogging debates, by the time we have discussed something for a few rounds, there is an assumption that the two sides are wildly far apart. That is the nature of blogging. We…The extreme manifestations seem to me to be what the debate is all about. Hardline cessationism almost forces one into the corner into which Aunty Jane paints herself: "Even if I myself experience the gifts, it's all demonic."
My family comes from east Tennessee and I guess I can only speak from my observations there as a mostly under-aged lay person. I wouldn't presume to dispute anything you've said here.
I can say that my mother's side of the family was demonstrably more tolerant of the more sensational manifestations of Spiritual gifts than my dad's side.
And, FWIW, my dad's dad owned the busiest grocery stores in town while my mother's dad washed out of Marine Corps boot camp and was given a job as an exterior painter at the paperboard manufacturing company in town as a matter of charity, it seems. My dad's mother often lamented that the oldest and youngest (my dad) of her 4 sons married gals from the "wrong side of the tracks," while others believe my mother was way out of my dad's league - lol.
But, anyway, Pentecostalism was believed to be more attractive to less affluent folks in my parents' neck o' the woods. I guess rich folks just prefer their types of self-medication to be less public than poor folks.
Me, I'm torn.
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Oh, well, east Tennessee. Say no more, wink wink nudge nudge.My family comes from east Tennessee and I guess I can only speak from my observations there as a mostly under-aged lay person. I wouldn't presume to dispute anything you've said here.
I can say that my mother's side of the family was demonstrably more tolerant of the more sensational manifestations of Spiritual gifts than my dad's side.
And, FWIW, my dad's dad owned the busiest grocery stores in town while my mother's dad washed out of Marine Corps boot camp and was given a job as an exterior painter at the paperboard manufacturing company in town as a matter of charity, it seems. My dad's mother often lamented that the oldest and youngest (my dad) of her 4 sons married gals from the "wrong side of the tracks," while others believe my mother was way out of my dad's league - lol.
But, anyway, Pentecostalism was believed to be more attractive to less affluent folks in my parents' neck o' the woods. I guess rich folks just prefer their types of self-medication to be less public than poor folks.
Me, I'm torn.
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SteVen
Well-known member
It seems strange to me to evaluate miracle gifts on a scale. Seems like a binary thing to me. ON/OFF
"How would you rate this manifestation of the Holy Spirit on a scale of 1 to 10?" Say what?
"Seems pretty conservative, I'll give it a 7." Seriously?
"I saw an extreme one the other day, someone was raised from the dead. It's the devil." - LOL
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I'm not sure it's really a scale. Most of the extreme versions seem to me to carry their own badge of nuttiness or inauthenticity. It's not as though Benny Hinn or the snake handlers are at 2 or 3 on the scale. They don't even register on the scale. If my wife starts speaking in tongues this evening, I'll pay serious attention. The gathering I watched was quite obviously just a bunch of well-meaning goofballs chanting OOLA-BWALLA-GOOLA-HUGGA-MUM-MUM-MUM because that was what was "expected." I'm going to buy myself a couple of rattlesnakes and settle this debate once and for all. If I scream OOLA-BWALLA-GOOLA-HUGGA-MUM-MUM-MUM as I'm dying, you'll know it's real.
SteVen
Well-known member
I believe that attributing the miracle work of God to the devil is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:24, 31 NIV
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said,
“It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” ...
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven,
but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
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SteVen
Well-known member
My condolences....
Here is the link to the full article. Clearly SDA from the get-go. Houteff established the headquarters in Waco in 1934 and changed the name in 1942 to.... the General Association of Davidian Seventh-day Adventists – 'Davidian'
In 1979 the torch was passed (bad pun) to a young man named Vernon Howell-- who would later infamously change his name to David Koresh.
