Cessationism versus Continuationism - The fallacy of "Signs Gifts".

[SteVen]

I'm about as non-dispensational a fellow as you're liable to find. Having said that, I'm losing pretty much all of my interest in debating doctrine, so...

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I may have shared my story about how I ended up where I am today on this subject. I took a very specific route to get here. I would even say that it was hard-won, but well worth it. Here's what I learned...

I was raised in an evangelical and unknowingly Cessationist nondenominational church. I am still in recovery from evangelicalism in general, but there were some definite benefits. Reading/studying the Bible was paramount to the experience, second only to having all your evangelical apologetics in order. The "reason" for the hope we had. To be used to evangelize a lost world that was headed to eternity in hell.

Counter to this was my parents acceptance of Continuationism, a term unknown to me or them. We attended our evangelical home church, but my parents went to Charismatic/Pentecostal meetings with their friends. It was all Christianity to them.

At one point I realized that my own interest in the Holy Spirit would not be satisfied by the evangelical church. I sought answers elsewhere. I had to hit the books, so to speak. I applied my Bible study skills learned in the evangelical church to the subject. I needed to replace the bad teaching I had been raised with. My home church had gone from "it's the devil" to "you can speak in tongues in your prayer closet, but don't bring it to church".

The hinge topic I came to understand was the Baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience to the indwelling that came with a renewed relationship with God. Everything else flowed from that. That was the hinge upon which this whole world of spiritual manifestations swung. What Jesus said about it pointed to the outpouring that BEGAN at Pentecost. The disciples already had the indwelling Spirit. So what was the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? (the promise of the Father) ??? I worked outward from that central point.

Acts 1:4-5 NIV
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

] cc: @Hillsage

 

[SteVen]

The next step was to look at the various outpourings. The two main ones were at Pentecost and the house of Cornelius. But there were a few other noteworthy events. I discovered that there was no set formula for how this worked. The work of the Holy Spirit cannot be limited that way. As Jesus said: The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” - John 3:8 NIV

- At Pentecost the Spirit came on those gathered there.
- Peter preached that those listening to him at Pentecost would receive the Spirit with water baptism.
- But in Samaria the baptized believes had NOT received the Holy Spirit.
- The Apostles laid hands on them and THEN they received the Holy Spirit.
- At the house of Cornelius, Peter was stilling preaching when the Holy Spirit came on the gentiles assembled there.
- Water baptism FOLLOWED the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.
- The Apostle Paul (Saul) received the Holy Spirit when Ananias (not an Apostle) laid hands on him.
- In Ephesus the Apostle Paul laid hands on the baptized believers, and then they received the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, the work of the Holy Spirit is unpredictable to some extent.

]

 

[SteVen]

The next thing I learned was that the so-called "gifts" of the Holy Spirit were actually NOT gifts, they were manifestations of the Holy Spirit. We don't possess the "gifts" they possess us.

I remember the classes in church about "finding your gift". Tragic. They had us listing our natural abilities to "identify" our spiritual gifts. Hopefully you can see what is wrong with that approach. The manifestations of the Holy Spirit are NOT natural abilities, they are SUPERnatural abilities. And we do not OWN them, nor are we limited to "our gifts". As if to say, "I took the class. That's not my gift."

Knowing this, I am open to however God chooses to manifest his Holy Spirit in me to suit his purposes. If God tells me to raise the dead, I don't say: "I took the class. That's not my gift."- LOL

]

 

[SteVen]

On this basis I returned to examine the ministry of Jesus. Were there similarities to my understanding of how God worked through Jesus? (yes)

I concluded two things:
1) Jesus performed His miracles as a human, not as God.
2) There were no formulas for how miracles happened.

Since Jesus expects us to follow him in this, he had to do these things in his humanity, not in his deity. He said: "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." - John 14:12 NIV

Have we seen that day as of yet? I don't think so.

When Jesus healed the blind, was there a consistent methodology? (no) Formulas don't work with the Holy Spirit.
- In Matthew 9:28-30 Jesus asks the blind if they believe. Answering"Yes." they were healed.
- In Mark 8:23-25 Jesus spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him.
- In John 9:6-7 Jesus put it on the man’s eyes and asked him to go wash in the Pool of Siloam.

As an explanation for the miracles Jesus said:

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself;
he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

]

 

[SteVen]

The next thing I needed to focus on was worship. Jesus said: "... true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." - John 4:23 NIV

I needed to take my worship experience to a new level. What did it mean to "worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth"? The Charismatics/Pentecostals that I was worshiping with led the way. There was freedom in worship. It was acceptable behavior to raise your hands in worship. And nothing new, really. David wrote: "I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands." - Psalm 63:4 NIV

And the manifestation of spiritual "gifts" in worship was also encouraged. See 1 Corinthians chapter 14. There was speaking in tongues and prophecy and praying for the sick.

All of this made much more aware of God's presence in our midst. A tangible experience. I had been in meetings where the presence of God was so thick you could cut it with a knife, as the saying goes.

Oftentimes I would stay in God's presence after the service was dismissed. Basking in the glory of the Lord. I remembered this about the Tent of Meeting in the wilderness.

Exodus 33:11 NIV
The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.
Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

]

 

[Ol' Barn]

I'm not debating doctrine when I write about the order of events (history) that led to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
And Cessationism (as a thing) was an "invention" of the 20th century.

Okay, I just thought I'd reply to your new topic. I guess I'm just feeling a little deflated in the wake of recent personal loss.

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[Ol' Barn]

Interesting. I can't edit a post that's been up for more than ten minutes. I'm sure there's a good reason for that but I gotta say, it really makes me hesitant to participate. Again, just sayin'.

 

[Mr E]

The next thing I needed to focus on was worship. Jesus said: "... true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." - John 4:23 NIV

I needed to take my worship experience to a new level. What did it mean to "worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth"? The Charismatics/Pentecostals that I was worshiping with led the way. There was freedom in worship. It was acceptable behavior to raise your hands in worship. And nothing new, really. David wrote: "I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands." - Psalm 63:4 NIV

And the manifestation of spiritual "gifts" in worship was also encouraged. See 1 Corinthians chapter 14. There was speaking in tongues and prophecy and praying for the sick.

All of this made much more aware of God's presence in our midst. A tangible experience. I had been in meetings where the presence of God was so thick you could cut it with a knife, as the saying goes.

Oftentimes I would stay in God's presence after the service was dismissed. Basking in the glory of the Lord. I remembered this about the Tent of Meeting in the wilderness.

Exodus 33:11 NIV
The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend.
Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

]

Did it look anything like this?

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/vcLNca8TOcI?si=AlGnwkCE_H5Bp_9q

 

[SteVen]

Did it look anything like this?

No, thankfully. - LOL

At the last church I attended a young man asked me if we spoke in tongues at this church.
It just was not a real upfront thing there. But it is in some places. Obviously.

]

 

[Mr E]

No, thankfully. - LOL

At the last church I attended a young man asked me if we spoke in tongues at this church.
It just was not a real upfront thing there. But it is in some places. Obviously.

]

It's been my experience with Pentacostals. There are varying degrees, of course. In some churches it might only be acceptable to tap a toe, or sway slightly during worship... palms may be turned upwards, hands should not be extended above shoulder height.... While at other Pentacostal churches they are slain in the spirit and rolling around on the carpeted floors. There are also varying degrees of mental illness.

 

[SteVen]

It's been my experience with Pentacostals. There are varying degrees, of course. In some churches it might only be acceptable to tap a toe, or sway slightly during worship... palms may be turned upwards, hands should not be extended above shoulder height.... While at other Pentacostal churches they are slain in the spirit and rolling around on the carpeted floors.

Indeed.

There are also varying degrees of mental illness.

Yes, that is unfortunately the way common church folk view us.

/

 

[Mr E]

Common church folk, as opposed to what? Hyper-dog, elite church folk?