Cessationism versus Continuationism - The fallacy of "Signs Gifts".

[SteVen]

While I agree in principle, I do think the correct interpretation of the nature of Spiritual gifts is a different discussion than cessation/continuation, and I wouldn't dare to presume what God should or shouldn't do based on my discomfort with counterfeiting them.

Right. It's a bad idea to put God the Holy Spirit in a box, thus limiting the limitless.

I agree that Spiritual gifts is a much BIGGER topic than Cessationism versus Continuationism.
But these two MINDSETS determine how these things are interpreted.

Many years ago I researched a whole bunch of denominations to understand their position on spiritual gifts. One denomination claimed that learning a new language at language school was the gift of tongues. Seriously? How is that a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

'

 

[Joker]

But (and that's a big but) there's the problem of how you ensure Quality Control. This lady on another forum came from a Charismatic church background and the "false prophecy of the week" phenomenon messed her up. Okay; maybe we overreacted, maybe the powers-that-be in the church wanted to maintain their fiefdoms, but .... I can still hear Gordon, the QCE from our Scotland factory, grousing in his Scottish burr, "Nobody loves the ******* Quality Engineer!"

 

[SteVen]

But (and that's a big but) there's the problem of how you ensure Quality Control.

Absolutely!
But we appear to have thrown out the Christ child with the bath water.

A good biblical grounding is important. It requires some discernment too.

]

 

[Ol' Barn]

Many years ago I researched a whole bunch of denominations to understand their position on spiritual gifts. One denomination claimed that learning a new language at language school was the gift of tongues. Seriously? How is that a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

I guess it could be if the person learning the language had tried many times before and failed, but succeeded when trying to do so for strictly missionary purposes? We mustn't limit the limitless, after all.

(But I do get your point.)

.

 

[Ol' Barn]

I agree that Spiritual gifts is a much BIGGER topic than Cessationism versus Continuationism.
But these two MINDSETS determine how these things are interpreted.

I'm not sure I can agree with either of these statements in an absolute sense. It seems to me that most people base their view of whether gifts still exist largely on what they perceive the gifts look like in practice by those who claim to possess them. That's been the attitude of, at least, nearly every cessationist I've ever encountered.

And I guess I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "BIGGER," in terms of topic discussion. But perhaps I'm just being difficult. I sometimes weirdly mistake nuance for vast difference.

.

 

[Ol' Barn]

Cessationism has created a situation similar to what Jesus encountered in his own hometown. He could only do a few miracles there due to the unbelief of the people. Which is very strange, but there it is.

Christ couldn't do miracles in many places because of a lack of faith on the part of those to whom He sought to minister, and I never thought of that in terms being directly tied to an attitude of cessationism before but, as you say, there it is.

I think that could be a genuinely valuable insight, and one worthy of appreciation (Thanks, Pal ) but I must admit, in the case of the inhabitants of Palestine, it seems to have likely been at least slightly more about the kind of miracles they were looking for (e.g., militant liberation from Rome) rather than the existence of Spiritual gifts per se, yay or nay.

To be fair, though, if God did work a lot of miracles in the roughly 400 years prior to Christ's first advent, He wasn't careful to record them in any documents to which we now have access (correct me if I'm wrong), so I suppose a general view of cessationism could have been prevalent.

.

 

[SteVen]

I guess it could be if the person learning the language had tried many times before and failed, but succeeded when trying to do so for strictly missionary purposes? We mustn't limit the limitless, after all.

(But I do get your point.)

.

--- PARODY ---

Student one: Did you pass your language exam?
Student two: Yes.
Student one: That's a miracle.
Student two: Indeed. Couldn't believe it myself.
Student one: Bribery?

;

 

[SteVen]

Christ couldn't do miracles in many places because of a lack of faith on the part of those to whom He sought to minister, and I never thought of that in terms being directly tied to an attitude of cessationism before but, as you say, there it is.

It explains that the nay-sayers today are preventing the miracles.

I think that could be a genuinely valuable insight, and one worthy of appreciation (Thanks, Pal ) but I must admit, in the case of the inhabitants of Palestine, it seems to have likely been at least slightly more about the kind of miracles they were looking for (e.g., militant liberation from Rome) rather than the existence of Spiritual gifts per se, yay or nay.

Spiritual gifts weren't really a thing until after the outpourings after Pentecost. IMHO

To be fair, though, if God did work a lot of miracles in the roughly 400 years prior to Christ's first advent, He wasn't careful to record them in any documents to which we now have access (correct me if I'm wrong), so I suppose a general view of cessationism could have been prevalent.

That was the inter-testamental period. Between the OT and NT) So, nothing to do with the outpourings after Pentecost. IMO

]

 

[Ol' Barn]

It explains that the nay-sayers today are preventing the miracles.


Spiritual gifts weren't really a thing until after the outpourings after Pentecost. IMHO


That was the inter-testamental period. Between the OT and NT) So, nothing to do with the outpourings after Pentecost. IMO

]

I'm about as non-dispensational a fellow as you're liable to find. Having said that, I'm losing pretty much all of my interest in debating doctrine, so...

.

 

[O'Darby III]

Cessationism has created a situation similar to what Jesus encountered in his own hometown. He could only do a few miracles there due to the unbelief of the people. Which is very strange, but there it is.

Exceedingly strange. He could perform miracles with people possessed by demons, people who were dead, and people who had no clue who he was, but the unbelief of those in his hometown was a hindrance. The standard explanation is that he chose not to, not that he couldn't. This is one of those weird little passages that seems to be so unlikely for inclusion in the NT that it's surely true. Ditto for the woman who touches his garment and Jesus "feels the power go out of him."

How do all the miracle healings and other seemingly miraculous occurrences in the context of other religions, and no religion at all, factor into the discussion? I have heard jaw-dropping reports from close and trusted friends who aren't Christians at all.

"It's all demons, sweetie." - Aunty Jane

 

[SteVen]

I'm about as non-dispensational a fellow as you're liable to find. Having said that, I'm losing pretty much all of my interest in debating doctrine, so...

.

I'm not debating doctrine when I write about the order of events (history) that led to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
And Cessationism (as a thing) was an "invention" of the 20th century.

From Wiki...
B.B. Warfield was a major proponent of Cessationism in the early 20th century. Warfield expounded his views on cessationism particularly in his 1918 work, Counterfeit Miracles.[28] His view was that the goal of the charismata was to accredit true doctrine and its bearers, and that miracles were limited to the Biblical era. Miracles are seen as proving doctrine and once the canon was sealed and the last apostles died, they were not needed. Warfield was highly influenced by the work of John Calvin.

/

 

[SteVen]

The standard explanation is that he chose not to, not that he couldn't.

The biblical record on this seems pretty clear.
(and what about the gentiles Jesus elsewhere lauded for their faith?) See Matthew 8:10 and Luke 7:9

Mark 6:4-6 NIV
Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.”
5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.
6 He was amazed at their lack of faith. ...

How do all the miracle healings and other seemingly miraculous occurrences in the context of other religions, and no religion at all, factor into the discussion? I have heard jaw-dropping reports from close and trusted friends who aren't Christians at all.

Yes, agree.
I don't think we can put any limits on what God can do.
It's not about RELIGION.

[