Why works for hire will fail to earn you salvation.

[Arial]

Trust (faith) is given so we can have trust (faith)?

"For the word of God is living and  active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart." . . . I would think it would be able to open eyes and open ears! It may take some longer than others but everyone will have the opportunity to hear and believe.

Well, I do believe he is giving a chronological order for salvation. Yep, he is saying when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, you believed in Christ, i.e were saved and were sealed with the promised holy spirit which guarantees our inheritance until we actually acquire it.

I thought grace was unmerited favor? We aren't saved through trust? Why wouldn't it still be by grace? It is through our trust in the completed work of Jesus Christ that we are saved which makes it not of our doing but of Christ's doing - and the result is eternal life which is the gift of God.

Here are the verses I previously posted showing that we are not justified or made righteous because of the law of works which I believe tie into this: not of works.
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, . . . . [Rom. 3:20]
Then what becomes of our boasting? (glorying) It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? NO, but by the law of faith (trust). For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from the works of the law . . . [Rom. 3:28]
yet we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but through faith (trust) in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. [Gal. 2:16]
. . . Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith (trust)? . . . Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith---[Gal. 3:2,5]

I am not going to argue about it with you anymore.

 

[Arial]

Of course it is.

On what basis do you make that statement? I will give you the basis for why I say it is not a chronological order. It isn't what Paul is talking about or why he said it. For one thing, he is writing to those who are already saved and a discussion on the order of the process is irrelevant to the topic. He was not presenting an argument on which comes first, our faith or salvation or where that faith comes from. Honestly to read chronology into the scripture and use it as a proof text that faith is our choice, one has to start with that conclusion. Otherwise chronology is not there at all. The subject is being in Christ and the blessings that go along with being in Christ, which include sealing by the Holy Spirit. This sealing is as irrevocable as that of the seal made by the king's ring. It is an inward mark of God's ownership of His people. It is part and parcel of salvation.

When a person decides to have faith in Jesus Christ, THEN the person is saved.

Where is there any scripture that says anything about deciding to have faith in Jesus?

Sure you can.

When one comments with simple answers like this, it is like a broken rope flapping from a tree limb in the wind. I said there is no legitimate reason to take Eph 1:13-14 as saying our faith causes God to grant us salvation. You have to start with a forgone conclusion to even see it in there. So what is you legitimate reason for doing so?

Of course it would. The fact that anyone can be saved is by grace.

A person has to have a very shallow and limited concept of grace to say that. It is grace that saves anyone, but that does not equate to faith (the ability to understand so as to believe the gospel) not being the very saving aspect of grace. And if that doesn't have to come from God also, then everything the scriptures say about the condition of man in relation to God after the fall is turned topsy turvy. Not only that, but it is the very work (actions) of man that bring any effectiveness to the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. The cross would be of no effect but for the thoughts and actions of a man. And piecemeal at that, in effect crucifying Him over and over.

God requires us to have faith.

Well it can't be found in man. Faith in God does not reside within us. We are at enmity with Him. And the new covenant, the covenant of grace, the fulfilled covenant through faith, with Abraham, is unilateral. That is God makes it Himself, provides all that is necessary for mankind to enter into that covenant, requiring no quid pro quo whatsoever. It is a covenant type---a royal grant covenant if you will. It was the same in His covenant with Abraham. So it faith is required, and it is, this too must come from God. If it must come from us, it is no longer a unilateral covenant of grace.

Salvation is a gift given when a person chooses to have faith.

Where in the Bible does it say anything about a person choosing to have faith, or that they must choose to have faith?

 

[Arial]

It doesn't in any way make me better than anyone else nor anyone lower than me - everyone is offered the same opportunity to believe in the work of Jesus Christ, to confess him as Lord, believe God raised him from the dead and be saved.

That is what people tell themselves so they won't be seen as puffed up. But it denies the fact if I don't rob a bank and someone else does, then I am a better and wiser person, a more righteous person than they are. And that I would think that about myself as would all the other people who were smart enough not to rob the bank. Even if I didn't go shouting it from the rooftops.

 

[MatthewG]

Adam and Eve had a choice to obey God or not. That is why people even today - decide either to seek out God in faith of his promises or not.

 

[Arial]

Adam and Eve had a choice to obey God or not. That is why people even today - decide either to seek out God in faith of his promises or not.

Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands; there is none who seeks after God. This is the condition of man since the fall and because of it.

Adam and Eve were given a command. They disobeyed the command, and formed an alliance with the serpent. The command given for mankind in scripture is Love the Lord God with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your strength. That means completely, perfectly, and all the time. The second is like unto it, requiring perfection, and if we keep those two perfectly, we will be keeping the other eight. No one, not even a Christian, can do that. We are blessed if we can do it five minutes straight. That is why we need a Savior who can clothe us with His righteousness.

 

[MatthewG]

I started seeking God out in 2016. Did I not make a choice? To me God is calling out for everyone to come to Him. It's their choice if they do so or not.

 

[MatthewG]

Adam and Eve were given two commands,

Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a]and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of lifein it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

The first one was - Be fruitful and increase in number, and to rule over all the animals. God also gave in return anything they could enjoy from what had been created with-in this garden.

Genesis 2:
8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin[d] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.[e] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Edento work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

The second commandment was not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

God gave them a place to stay, away to subdue animals, and this was all in the first mentioning of Creation. It is interesting to note that Adam and Eve had direct connection with God, even for a little while longer even after having made the choice to eat from the tree that he told Adam to not eat from. God gave them the freedom and choice to choose and do what they desired to do with-in this place which Adam and Eve had relation with God. According to Hebrew tradition - yes a simple tradition it is said that - Adam and Eve would commune with God and perhaps God would show up during this transaction as wind and speak to them.

This God is a very generous God who gives individuals free will to choose, Adam and Eve could have went and talked to God about how to procreate if they needed to and he would explain it to them if they needed. The Devil or The Observer had come along and placed beguiled eve who decided by her own merit to choose to have picked from the tree and ate it, so did Adam. They could have went and talked to God about it, but when they partook with-in that notion of disobeying the shame, and guilt set in. God gave them a charge against their disobedience which Man would toil and labor, and women their birth pains would increase, and for the Devil, he was promised to have his head crushed in. In regards to this action and the consequence, God still takes time to create them better clothing than what they had made for themselves out of figs and leaves, before having sent them away off out of the Garden, which I believe now today has been restored.

 

[MatthewG]

You are right by sharing that scripture which can be seen in light today, as it can be a general used statement that most probably won't seek after God. It perhaps needs to come from hearing what the Bible has to say and come from a place of understanding to convey to another person all the great things God had done. In that day in age, when Paul was writing his letters, Paul is quoting a promise that had come about with-in that day in age, where there were people who were not seeking God, and could careless. Does that still apply today? Yes, it does @Arial in a sense it does apply however that doesn't mean people are barred away from the ability to make the choice to seek out God, in my best estimation.

The reason why they are not barred away? Because the Bible mentions from John in the revelation of a glorious heavenly city with open gates that never close with the Spirit calling people to come, and those that do will be given water.


Here are some general reference scriptures to share along with Romans 3:11

Romans 3:11​

none that understandeth: Rom 1:22, Rom 1:28; Psa 14:2-4, Psa 53:2, Psa 53:4, Psa 94:8; Pro 1:7, Pro 1:22, Pro 1:29-30; Isa 27:11; Jer 4:22; Hos 4:6; Mat 13:13-14, Mat 13:19; Tit 3:3; 1Jn 5:20

seeketh: Rom 8:7; Job 21:15-16; Isa 9:13, Isa 31:1, Isa 55:6, Isa 65:1; Hos 7:10

Proverbs 1:29-30 is a spot on verse for the choices a person makes.

 

[shroom]

That is what people tell themselves so they won't be seen as puffed up. But it denies the fact if I don't rob a bank and someone else does, then I am a better and wiser person, a more righteous person than they are. And that I would think that about myself as would all the other people who were smart enough not to rob the bank. Even if I didn't go shouting it from the rooftops.

That's true. Similarly, a person who chooses to believe the gospel is a smarter and wiser person than someone who doesn't.

 

[shroom]

On what basis do you make that statement? I will give you the basis for why I say it is not a chronological order. It isn't what Paul is talking about or why he said it. For one thing, he is writing to those who are already saved and a discussion on the order of the process is irrelevant to the topic. He was not presenting an argument on which comes first, our faith or salvation or where that faith comes from. Honestly to read chronology into the scripture and use it as a proof text that faith is our choice, one has to start with that conclusion. Otherwise chronology is not there at all. The subject is being in Christ and the blessings that go along with being in Christ, which include sealing by the Holy Spirit. This sealing is as irrevocable as that of the seal made by the king's ring. It is an inward mark of God's ownership of His people. It is part and parcel of salvation.

To think that in Eph 1:13-14 Paul is not talking about how the salvation process works, one has to start with that conclusion.

Where is there any scripture that says anything about deciding to have faith in Jesus?

It's implied throughout the Bible.

When one comments with simple answers like this, it is like a broken rope flapping from a tree limb in the wind. I said there is no legitimate reason to take Eph 1:13-14 as saying our faith causes God to grant us salvation. You have to start with a forgone conclusion to even see it in there. So what is you legitimate reason for doing so?

In order for someone to see Eph 1:13-14 to not be talking about the salvation process, you have to start with a foregone conclusion.

A person has to have a very shallow and limited concept of grace to say that. It is grace that saves anyone, but that does not equate to faith (the ability to understand so as to believe the gospel) not being the very saving aspect of grace. And if that doesn't have to come from God also, then everything the scriptures say about the condition of man in relation to God after the fall is turned topsy turvy. Not only that, but it is the very work (actions) of man that bring any effectiveness to the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. The cross would be of no effect but for the thoughts and actions of a man. And piecemeal at that, in effect crucifying Him over and over.

You're Reformed, Arial. That's how you see everything in the Bible.

Well it can't be found in man. Faith in God does not reside within us. We are at enmity with Him. And the new covenant, the covenant of grace, the fulfilled covenant through faith, with Abraham, is unilateral. That is God makes it Himself, provides all that is necessary for mankind to enter into that covenant, requiring no quid pro quo whatsoever. It is a covenant type---a royal grant covenant if you will. It was the same in His covenant with Abraham. So it faith is required, and it is, this too must come from God. If it must come from us, it is no longer a unilateral covenant of grace.

You're repeating yourself, reciting your Calvinist understanding of the Bible

Where in the Bible does it say anything about a person choosing to have faith, or that they must choose to have faith?

It's everywhere. God wants everyone to be saved. He is not willing that any should perish. He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (be saved).

People have free will. Anyone has the capacity to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Arial]

On what basis do you make that statement?

This was your answer to the question above.

To think that in Eph 1:13-14 Paul is not talking about how the salvation process works, one has to start with that conclusion.

Does that seem like it answered the question to you?

It's implied throughout the Bible.

How? Where? It says salvation comes through believe. those that believe are saved etc. Nothing about us choosing or deciding to believe. Nothing at all. It isn't there. Ever. And it would be easy enough for it to be there, and should be there if what you say is true. That we have to decide to believe. Which is about as close as a person can get to an oxymoron without actually being one. It isn't implied either except through a lens that can only see things one way, or refuses to see anything other than one way. Their way. And before you accuse me of doing that, it would be inaccurate to do so, for I never only look through one lens. My concern is to know what is true, whether I like it or not, and you can't get there going the wrong way down a one way street.

In order for someone to see Eph 1:13-14 to not be talking about the salvation process, you have to start with a foregone conclusion.

All this is is you parroting me but turning what I said around on me. And the above statement is unverified by you, whereas I verified my statement with content when I made it to you.

You're Reformed, Arial. That's how you see everything in the Bible.

That is what you consider an answer to everything. In fact it is an answer to nothing. It simply shows an inability to engage in actual conversation giving support to ones suppositions. And this discussion and the OP have nothing to do with Calvinism or Reformed theology. There is no need to turn every disagreement you have with someone into an ism. Do you believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone? Then I guess we better start calling you a Calvinist.

You're repeating yourself, reciting your Calvinist understanding of the Bible

My understanding of the Bible agrees with a lot that is in Calvinism and Reformed, but it is not from any theology or ism that I determines what I see the Bible as saying. And this is not a thread about "ists" and "isms". Is it possible to post without resorting to that?

It's everywhere. God wants everyone to be saved. He is not willing that any should perish. He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (be saved).

People have free will. Anyone has the capacity to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

How can a person say God is omnipotent and at the same time say He wants everyone to be saved, that He is not willing that any should perish when it is obvious that more perish than are saved? Your theory of freewill will not solve the problem. It presents a God who would leave the salvation of any subjected to the will of man, a creature who is at enmity with Him by his very nature. One who would leave the effectiveness of the suffering and death of His Son in the hands of sinful man. It presents a God who is subjected to the will of man, who values man's will above His own.

 

[Arial]

That's true. Similarly, a person who chooses to believe the gospel is a smarter and wiser person than someone who doesn't.

Therefore better. Gotcha. Finally someone admits it.