Why the Sacrifices in the Sinai Covenant

[Grace Accepted]

But for others reading along, consider examining what the scriptures actually say.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Deceivers must twist God's Words to promote the other voices in the world God placed us in. So then God's "Warning" to mankind, against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, becomes "threats" God uses to get HIS Way, to the deceiver. "Carrot and Stick" they preach to the world about God.

And yet this is the picture you constantly present. Even you wrathful utterances against the saints of God on this forum testifies to your spirit of vengeance and retribution.

It seems that you are more like Jonah under his wilted vine than you are like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem. You have climbed your hill and are waiting to watch our destruction.

 

[Grace Accepted]

So for your declaration to be true, Abraham could not have known about the Flood God brought against ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Your implication that Abraham didn't know about God's "threat" to Adam, or Cain. You are free to ignore these events, or claim ignorance of them yourself, in order to prop up the specific religious sect you have adopted. But to saddle Abraham with your own willful ignorance, or Judge God as one who didn't reveal His Wrath against ungodliness to Abraham, is a foolishness I will not engage in.

Abraham most certainly knew God's Wrath against ungodliness, same as those in Sodom knew, and Adam knew, "for God has shown them". They simply didn't believe Him, choosing instead to believe "the other voice" you are promoting. But Abraham did Believe Him, and His Warnings of God's Wrath against unrighteousness. WE know this because God told us. "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

Now you are admitting that it was a threat. Hmmmm? The point that I was making, is that God knew Abram whom He later named Abraham and knew that He would respond to His promise. So God did not need to threaten him. All He had to do was present his promise to him.

 

[Grace Accepted]

Secondly, to believe in this religious philosophy you have adopted, and are now promoting, I would have to erase, or omit the very Reason's God Himself gave for giving Abraham His Covenant.

Gen. 22: 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

As it is written; "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"

This is revealing of your relationship with God. You see it as contractual but I believe in God's omnipotence. Now to be sure there is arguments to be made either way but I think the perp[oderance of the evidence points to an omniscient God and therefore God did not need to test Abraham to see if He would give up his son and when He did God then rewarded Him with a contract.

The test was for Abraham and for us. I firmly believe that the whole incident was to teach the world about God's gift of His son to us in which He not only give His son for us but also did not stay His hand at the last moment.

Why would an omniscient God need to test anyone?

He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person. John 2:25

 

[Arial]

Does that do for you too?

Of course. I simply pointed out that it says both, "on the third day" and "three days and nights."

Yes, but WHAT Sabbath. The Bible says is was a "high" Sabbath.

It doesn't matter. After all I said are you still trying to argue with me about it? Do so with someone else who thinks it is of vital importance.

Yes, we celebrate Christ's resurrection on a Sunday, even though he was raised on late Saturday..

Still trying to argue the unnecessary and unprovable.

Where are the three nights?

You do realize Jesus was making reference to Jonah when He said that right? He is saying there will be a sign on the order of what was given with Jonah, as to who He is. He will be buried and return to life.

You're usually a stickler for details, Arial. With the traditional understanding of Friday-Sunday, you know things don't add up. But rather than trying to understand it, you're trying to minimize it.

I know it fits with what we read, what we are actually given. Jesus rose on the third day. It does not really matter what third day it is. What matters is He rose and how it is tied into the deliverance of the Hebrews from Egypt, that shows the real has come that the OT shadowed. Passover. The Sabbath rest. Deliverance.

 

[Arial]

Right away you have a problem. You are basing the rest of your argument upon an unfounded and unproven premise. Here are some questions that come to mind.

1. How does pointing out that there is no conditional statement made in the text in Genesis 1:12-3 relate to John Calvin?
2. What is your source for Calvin view of Genesis 1:12-3.
3. Which doctrine of Calvin's applies to your premise?

I can't find any connection other than you making a weak attempt to use a logical fallacy to imply that my argument is invalid because I am connected or influenced in some way by John Calvin.

You are incorrect on all accounts and there is no way that you can connect my argument or myself to John Calvin. It seems that you pull out the pope, modern preachers, mainstream religion, constantine, the RCC and such individual systems or people you deem dirty enough to soil your opponent rather than simply addressing the arguments they present.

This is a very poor way to conduct yourself in a debate. Perhaps I am wrong and you can point out how Calvin is related to my argument.

I understand that you lean toward open theology and perhaps that is where you should start rather than with John Calvin.

He shuts his ears to hear that because it is all he has to supposedly prop up is diatribe. I also have told him it is an invalid defense, a strawman, a logical fallacy, empty, carries no weight, punches holes in his water bucket before he ever begins presenting anything----but he never stops using it. And he never will. Get ready for the next empty insult. He will probably use Calvin in his comeback to your post.

 

[Grace Accepted]

In Calvinism influenced religions, this opinion is popular. But it doesn't Glorify God, nor does it reflect the truth in Scriptures.

Rom. 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

First off, Your preaching that God, "Revealing His Wrath against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" is God "threatening" people to get them to do what God wants, is typical for you and other Calvinist influenced religious zealots. Your disdain for this God notwithstanding, I don't believe God telling the truth to men, is "threatening them". Any more than telling you that you are free to stand on the roof of the skyscraper, but don't jump off, because in the day you jump off, you shall surely die, is a threat. There is a difference between a threat, and a warning.

Your preaching that "If you jump off the Skyscraper, then you will die" is sending a different message than "Jump off the Skyscraper AND you will die is ridiculous.

Of course, this will not stop you from promoting such falsehoods.


But for others reading along, consider examining what the scriptures actually say.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Deceivers must twist God's Words to promote the other voices in the world God placed us in. So then God's "Warning" to mankind, against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, becomes "threats" God uses to get HIS Way, to the deceiver. "Carrot and Stick" they preach to the world about God.

But the Scriptures don't agree with the implications of your sermons.

So for your declaration to be true, Abraham could not have known about the Flood God brought against ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Your implication that Abraham didn't know about God's "threat" to Adam, or Cain. You are free to ignore these events, or claim ignorance of them yourself, in order to prop up the specific religious sect you have adopted. But to saddle Abraham with your own willful ignorance, or Judge God as one who didn't reveal His Wrath against ungodliness to Abraham, is a foolishness I will not engage in.

Abraham most certainly knew God's Wrath against ungodliness, same as those in Sodom knew, and Adam knew, "for God has shown them". They simply didn't believe Him, choosing instead to believe "the other voice" you are promoting. But Abraham did Believe Him, and His Warnings of God's Wrath against unrighteousness. WE know this because God told us. "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

Secondly, to believe in this religious philosophy you have adopted, and are now promoting, I would have to erase, or omit the very Reason's God Himself gave for giving Abraham His Covenant.

Gen. 22: 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

As it is written; "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"


And again;

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

As it is written; "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"


Of course, since you are here to promote the doctrine that "Follow Me, and I will bless thee", is somehow different than "If you follow me, I will Bless thee", you will probably not even consider these truths.

But for those who may be reading along.

Gen. 17: 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

God Himself said "Because Abraham Obeyed", God made His Covenant with him, as HE promised. Had Abraham followed the path of the world that God brought His Flood upon, instead of being a "Doer" of God's Sayings, God would not have made His Covenant with Abraham. God Himself, tells us "WHY" Abraham was Blessed. I posted God's Own Words. But "many" who come in Christ's Name, don't believe Him.

This is how I know that;

"walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly."

Has exactly the same meaning to God as;

If you walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

As it is written; "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him"

Same as with Cain and Able. "“If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

So "Do Well AND though shall be accepted, is the same as "If you do well, will you not be accepted". There is no reason for Word games, unless you are trying to twist scriptures to fit into a particular religious sect.

Same with Caleb.

Num. 14:22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; 23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: 24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

Same with Jesus;

Matt. 7: 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, (Like Abraham and Caleb) I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: "for" (Because) it was founded upon a rock.

Same with Paul;

Rom. 2: 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, (Like Abraham and Caleb) eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, (Like those who Mock many of God's instructions) indignation and wrath,

Not a Threat, simply God's Truth.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, (Telling lies about God's Word) of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, (Doer of God's Sayings, like Abraham, not hearers only, ) to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


The same warnings in the end;

Rev. 22: 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

So yes GA, your religion preaches Abraham had nothing to do with God choosing Him. A popular lie yes, the religious of this world have made billions promoting it. But a lie just the same.

"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

There are "many" White Washed Walls in the world today that come in Christ's Name, claiming to be "Heirs to the Promise" of Abraham. But Jesus, that is, the Jesus of the Bible teaches;

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. (Like Joseph, and Zacharias, and Caleb and Joshua, and Simeon, and Paul, and James and every example of Faith given from the examples of Faith God had written for our admonition.

And if the "threats", as you preach, that Jesus made about "many" who come in His Name are true, then there will be a lot of surprised folks who will be saying, "but Lord, Lord, don't you know who we are"? We had pig roasts and Slug parties in your name.

Why was Abraham counted as perfect?

Gen 15:6
Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

James 2:23
and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

Galatians 3:6-14
just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Romans 4:9
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Romans 4:20-25
No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,

Romans 4:3-6
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Psalm 106:31
And that was counted to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Romans 4:11
He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

Why Calab?

Num 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully...

Why Paul?

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. Phil 3:9

The simple fact is you confuse the effect with the affect as do all who depend upon legalism to avoid punishment.

 

[Grace Accepted]

He shuts his ears to hear that because it is all he has to supposedly prop up is diatribe. I also have told him it is an invalid defense, a strawman, a logical fallacy, empty, carries no weight, punches holes in his water bucket before he ever begins presenting anything----but he never stops using it. And he never will. Get ready for the next empty insult. He will probably use Calvin in his comeback to your post.

The man is where I was at one time minus the vitriol. With out Grace our god becomes harsh, exacting and cruel...and us.

 

[Studyman]

Thus Jesus was wrong when He said that Man is to love his wife as much as Jesus loves His church.

No Jesus was right. But Adam didn't love his wife like Jesus Loved God's Church. Jesus Chastises those who HE Loves. Adam just went along with his wife's new found religion.

Had Adam simply obeyed GOD, you and I would not likely be here. The fall of man had to happen for the glory of GOD. No other way would the Son of Man be needed.

God inspired Paul to teach His People, that these Scriptures were written as examples for us, "for our Sakes no doubt", and that the things that happened to them, happened to them for our admonition. I see no reason to doubt or question God in this matter.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

God shows everyone His Gospel.

Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The church of Jesus is a type of woman. A bride to be of the members of this church...Did He place this church in front of GOD...He death, burial and resurrection was preordained for all the members of His church.

The first Adam was influenced by the "woman" to Sin. The Second Adam, saddled with the same woman (Spiritually), who had listened to the same voice, did not allow her to influence Him to Sin.

There are a lot of people who claim to be heirs of the Promises to Abraham but are not. You seem to be implying that Jesus placed the women before God, His Father. But that is not so. Jesus risked His Life for the woman, He didn't turn away from God for her.

That is not what this scripture means but thanks

Blade

I believe this Scripture implies and demonstrates the Love God has for the Jews. But EVERY MAN has their part to play, and it is a voluntary humility.

As Paul tells us. "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"

 

[Arial]

The test was for Abraham and for us. I firmly believe that the whole incident was to teach the world about God's gift of His son to us in which He not only give His son for us but also did not stay His hand at the last moment.

Agreed. Although I believe Abraham himself needed that test, so he knew how firm and steadfast his faith was. And it showed him the absolute faithfulness of God. But it is a beautiful picture (shadow) of God providing His own Son and connecting it profoundly to the faith in Jesus that saves. And the grace of God in this. And connecting for us the covenant of promise with Abraham, the statement about Abraham that his faith was counted to him as righteousness, the fulfillment of that covenant in Christ. God is so perfect in all His ways!

 

[meshak]

The man is where I was at one time minus the vitriol. With out Grace our god becomes harsh, exacting and cruel...and us.

Still trying to paint the Truth as bitrot, harsh and cruel.

The majority, especially trins don't want to hear the Truth.

your opinions against the naked truth are becoming harsher and harsher.

 

[Studyman]

The feasts are Jewish religious holidays. They have great signifcance, but they are Jewish. Christians aren't Jews.

That is a popular religious philosophy of this world.

But the Scriptures do say;

Lev. 23: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

So God gave HIS Feast's to Israel. Israel didn't give their "feasts" to God. This is simply Biblical Truth.

 

[CherubRam]

Yes, God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree. Where's the scripture saying God told him to keep the Sabbath?

Right here:
Mark 2:27
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man,