Why the Sacrifices in the Sinai Covenant

[Studyman]

Yes, Abram is proving his faith in God, but this is before the covenant was made. Part of what Abram believes is that God will make him a great nation. He believes Him, but it is not the covenant.

You are omitting the truth that Abram could have chosen the religion of his fathers over God, as others did. Had he not obeyed God's instruction to "Deny himself, take up his cross, and follow the Lord", there would have been no covenant.

God is telling him what he is going to do, and how else was Abram to believe something and act on it, unless God told him. God didn't tell him "If you do this, I will do that." He simply told him to do it and Abram did.

God gives everyone a Command and tells everyone what He is going to do. Some believe, like Noah and Abraham, some don't, like Cain and Eve.

Yes. Faith without works is dead. But also works without faith are dead. The scripture is showing us who Abram is.

Yes, Abram humbled Himself to God's Commands. God didn't make Abram obey, it was a volunteer humility.

This is irrelevant to the situation, just a distraction back into your trying to support something with something that doesn't support it. To go into it with you would move the conversation into another whole set of tomes that have nothing to do with the headline of the OP.

My reply was about the foundation of your sermon. "This covenant was unilateral, meaning it was an agreement between two parties, God and Abraham, in which only one of the parties has the responsibility to act."

God is the "Giver" of the instruction, Abram was the "doer" of the instruction. That is the relationship between God and Abram and is the very reason why God made His Covenant with Abaham. I know this because God tells me exactly that. "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Yes, it is true that Calvinism doesn't teach this. That is why I will not adopt it as a way of life.

I certainly never implied such a thing. So, who are these "some" and what do they, or this, have to do with the conversation?

But you did. ""This covenant was unilateral, meaning it was an agreement between two parties, God and Abraham, in which only one of the parties has the responsibility to act."

Obviously. Does that conclude that we achieve perfect righteousness by our works? You are distracting from the meaning of a covenant of promise. Even Abraham sinned, badly and often, beginning with Hagar. You fold works and promise into each other.

The Command to deny himself, pick up his cross and follow God, was God's instruction, not Abrams. When Abram obeyed, he wasn't doing "his works", but God's, "which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

As God inspired from the very beginning, "If you do well, will you not be accepted". And in the middle; "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" And in the end; "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Abraham and I understand this because we don't listen to all the "other voices" in the world God placed us in.

This is not the same covenant and not for the same purpose, except in the working out of the promise. There is a separate cutting as ratifying this covenant, and it is as a sign only, as to Abraham's descendants, who would, in the future, be a part of the covenant of works at Sinai, concerning keeping the land of Canaan, and through whom the covenant of promise would also be fulfilled. Gen 17:7-13

Well, this is your religion, squeezed through the prism of Calvinism. What I am pointing out, is what the scriptures actually say, and they don't agree with you.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Abraham and I understand this because we don't listen to all the "other voices" in the world God placed us in.

The difference between you and Abraham is that he listened to God's voice.
You stick your fingers in your ears and say no.
With your fingers in your ears your own voice supersedes the wee voice.

 

[Studyman]

In order for this to be true Adam would have to have been deceived.
Scripture says otherwise.
King James Bible
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Your understanding of the beginning is flawed.

Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen. 3: 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Nevertheless, Adam ate the fruit. Are you saying Adam committed suicide? Or is it that Adam really didn't believe God?

It's hard to take someone seriously who preaches to the world that Jesus called the Holy Prophets, that His Father chose to foretell of the Just One, "thieves and Robbers who came not be to kill and destroy".

 

[Studyman]

The difference between you and Abraham is that he listened to God's voice.
You stick your fingers in your ears and say no.
With your fingers in your ears your own voice supersedes the wee voice.

Say no to what? You are super moderator and a super administrator and a Gold Contributor. Should you not have more than sophomoric, juvenile and petty insults?

Or are you one of those "do as I say, not as I do" kind of fella's?

 

[Comingfrom]

Just because a scripture mentions sacrifice or thanksgiving or tithes, does not mean it relates to the particular topic of the OP.

I confess, I was lazy, and I was short of time.
So I just put some scriptures, what I believe the Lord says our sacrifices are, and what they are for.

Studyman done an excellent job of breaking down your offering,
and showing scripture.

Thou shalt part it in pieces, and pour oil thereon:
it is a meat offering.
Leviticus 2:6

 

[shroom]

So I just put some scriptures

It seems to me that is what you do in all of your posts, "just put some scriptures."

Thou shalt part it in pieces, and pour oil thereon:
it is a meat offering.
Leviticus 2:6

It's talking about a literal meat offering. A sacrificed animal.

 

[patience]

But you did. ""This covenant was unilateral, meaning it was an agreement between two parties, God and Abraham, in which only one of the parties has the responsibility to act."

I'd like to step in here and say that in this instance, I believe Arial is speaking about the blood covenant in Gen. 15:7-21. In a blood covenant the parties involved walk between pieces of bloody animals to cement a covenant. In this case, a deep sleep fell on Abraham and "a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces" - God alone, walked between the pieces basically making a covenant with Himself guaranteeing that Abraham and his descendants would get the land promised them. NOTHING would be able to break this covenant that God made with Himself for Abraham and his descendants. God acted alone in this blood covenant.

 

[patience]

I'd like to step in here and say that in this instance, I believe Arial is speaking about the blood covenant in Gen. 15:7-21. In a blood covenant the parties involved walk between pieces of bloody animals to cement a covenant. In this case, a deep sleep fell on Abraham and "a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces" - God alone, walked between the pieces basically making a covenant with Himself guaranteeing that Abraham and his descendants would get the land promised them. NOTHING would be able to break this covenant that God made with Himself for Abraham and his descendants. God acted alone in this blood covenant.

Also need to add: Hebrews 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, . . (Heb. 6:13-18)

 

[Arial]

You are omitting the truth that Abram could have chosen the religion of his fathers over God, as others did. Had he not obeyed God's instruction to "Deny himself, take up his cross, and follow the Lord", there would have been no covenant.

What Abram could or could not have done is irrelevant. You are making a statement, calling it truth, that is based on what ifs. And you insert another irrelevancy "the religion of his fathers" without a glimmer of what that was. For all we know his fathers or at least some of them also followed God. We go by what we have, not what might have been. That there would be a covenant, and the one that does exist, was by God's decree, not happenstance. There is not one single thing in the scriptures that is not in one way or another connected to redemption.

God gives everyone a Command and tells everyone what He is going to do. Some believe, like Noah and Abraham, some don't, like Cain and Eve.

So what? What does that have to do with the covenant God made with Abraham?

But you did. ""This covenant was unilateral, meaning it was an agreement between two parties, God and Abraham, in which only one of the parties has the responsibility to act."

The above quote is in response to me saying that I never implied what you say in the quote below. To which I had replied I never implied any such thing.

Now some imply in their preaching that Abram had no say in the matter. Implying that God gave him the promise and then forced him to leave his father.

So I requote what is below, as I have already told it to you twice. This time try reading it with understanding and stop confusing to seperate things---covenant and law---and talking about them like they are the same thing. Covenant is not an idea, it is an actual thing.

The only one required to act means that, in this case, it is God's responsibility to fulfill the promise. His fulfilling the promise was not conditional upon Abraham doing anything. The fact that Abraham did do things, otherwise he would have died long ago sitting in that same spot, does not make these things a condition of the covenant.

Yes, Abram humbled Himself to God's Commands. God didn't make Abram obey, it was a volunteer humility.

That is not even remotely what we are talking about.

My reply was about the foundation of your sermon. "This covenant was unilateral, meaning it was an agreement between two parties, God and Abraham, in which only one of the parties has the responsibility to act."

God is the "Giver" of the instruction, Abram was the "doer" of the instruction. That is the relationship between God and Abram and is the very reason why God made His Covenant with Abaham. I know this because God tells me exactly that. "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Read the actual covenant. Is there anywhere in that covenant of promise where God says, if you do this, I will do that. Just as in a contract, the contract is contained within the four corners of the contract, so is the covenant contained within what is spoken in the covenant. The things that God told Abraham to do, and the things that Abraham did were not contained within the covenant agreement. God said I will do this. Period. Let me give you an example of this type of covenant in the ancient world. It was called a royal grant covenant. A royal grant covenant was an outright gift from a king to a subject. No conditions or quid quo pro required. As opposed to a suzerainty treaty (like the Sinai covenant) in which the sovereign king made an agreement with a vassal in which the king made promises to the vassal and the vassal made promises to the king.

The Command to deny himself, pick up his cross and follow God, was God's instruction, not Abrams. When Abram obeyed, he wasn't doing "his works", but God's, "which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

As God inspired from the very beginning, "If you do well, will you not be accepted". And in the middle; "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" And in the end; "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus did not give that command to Abraham, and neither did God. And we are not talking about law and obedience here, we are talking about a covenant made by God with Abraham.

Abraham and I understand this because we don't listen to all the "other voices" in the world God placed us in.

Lame and irrelevant.

Well, this is your religion, squeezed through the prism of Calvinism. What I am pointing out, is what the scriptures actually say, and they don't agree with you.

It may surprise you to hear yet again, that appealing to the cry of "That's Calvinism" is not a support for any supposition.It is an indication that the one using it has run out of steam, has no support for what they say, or is just plain lazy. Calvinism has zero to do with this conversation, and zero to do with the discussion of the covenant of promise God made with Abraham. Also, it doesn't hurt my feelings, or intimidate me. But you are not pointing out what the scriptures say about the subject at hand, which is what was and was not in the covenant of promise with Abraham. And we are far off from the subject of the OP so it is time to get back to it. You have simply brought the other thread over here where it doesn't belong.

 

[Comingfrom]

It seems to me that is what you do in all of your posts, "just put some scriptures."

Thanks shroom.
Just following His commandments.

And if thou bring an oblation of a meat offering baken in the oven,
it shall be unleavened cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil.
Leviticus 2:4

It's talking about a literal meat offering. A sacrificed animal.

Thanks for offering me your meat.
But I don't see how that helps you to keep the commandment.

And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil,
three tenth deals for a bullock,
and two tenth deals for a ram,
Numbers 29:3

 

[Comingfrom]

I'd like to step in here and say that in this instance, I believe Arial is speaking about the blood covenant in Gen. 15:7-21. In a blood covenant the parties involved walk between pieces of bloody animals to cement a covenant. In this case, a deep sleep fell on Abraham and "a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces" - God alone, walked between the pieces basically making a covenant with Himself guaranteeing that Abraham and his descendants would get the land promised them. NOTHING would be able to break this covenant that God made with Himself for Abraham and his descendants. God acted alone in this blood covenant.

Allow me also, to step in here, and remind you what God says.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword:
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
Isaiah 1:19-20

And He will throughly purge His floor, and will gather the wheat into His garner;
but the chaff He will burn with fire unquenchable.
Luke 3:17

 

[Comingfrom]

Also need to add: Hebrews 6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, . . (Heb. 6:13-18)

My covenant will I not break,
nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.
Once have I sworn by My holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure forever, and His throne as the sun before Me.
Psalm 89:34-36