Why All the Divisions Within Christ's Church?

[Mr E]

You lost focus, or never had it. The topic was about the perfect and whether or not he was seen face to face.


The Bible was written by eye witnesses, or dictated to by eyewitnesses to those helping with writing.

Almost half the NT was written by Paul, who never claimed to have been an eye witness to anything Jesus ever said or did outside of his dream encounter.

 

[The_drake_]

The Bible was written by eye witnesses, or dictated by eye witnesses to those who wrote it down for them.

Proof in scripture? Where is it? You told me you could back all of your version of God's truth up with scripture.

Matthew was anonymous, how can you prove using scripture who wrote it without going outside of scripture to the fathers?

Luke was anonymous, how can you prove it who wrote it or what they saw without relying on Ireneus?

Mark was anonymous, etc

No where in scripture do these authors identify themselves, they are identified by the Fathers later, outside of scripture.

How can you say Paul saw and walked with earthly Jesus when acts clearly rejects this?

 

[Grace Accepted]

It does, but you can't see it.

I will give you more to consider, but you probably won't be allowed to consider it carefully, let alone read it.
In the Old Testament, old law times, people saw darkly, dimly, they only had prophecy in part, they were as children, until Jesus came the first time.

Now read this next scripture, it says when perfect is comes which is in part shall be done away.
We have all the prophecies we needed, the mysteries have been revealed, they aren't in part as they once were during the Old Testament times.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Now read about when I was a child and what that means.
It is about being under the Old Testament times. Paul refers to that time as the people being as a child, because they didn't have Jesus yet.

Galatians 4 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Did you read that? When we were children is about being under the old law.
Galatians 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
So now that Jesus has come, we are no longer as a child. The perfect has come.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

We no longer see through a glass darkly, for they have seen him face to face.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

See here how Peter explains it:

2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The Old Testament believers waited a long time for God to reveal Jesus to us, and in the New Testament time people prophesied about what God finally revealed to us what He wanted us to know. We have the mysteries revealed, and we have all the teachings we need to lead us to eternal life, we cannot add or subtract from the finished work, we cannot add new prophecies and knowledge to the Bible. The perfect has come.

When you only have prophesy in part (as in the Old Testament times), the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, and more prophecy is needed, it is imperfect. However, when there is fulfillment of prophecy (as in the New Testament times), then we have full understanding; so then, it is perfect and, that which is perfect is come.

The perfect Jesus Christ came, he gave his perfect teachings about the perfect New Covenant, he gave the perfect sacrifice, and we are made perfect by his blood and obeying his perfect words.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The Bible has everything we need to know for salvation, for our being perfect.
When we have faith in Jesus’ blood and obey Jesus’ teachings, it is when and how we are made perfect.

Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

James 1:25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do

None of this supports your supposition

 

[Phedup]

The Bible was written by eye witnesses, or dictated to by eyewitnesses to those helping with writing.

The four gospels did not exist until mid second century. About half of Paul's letters are merely attributed to him. 2 Peter was written long after Peter was dead.

 

[Arial]

1. A common dispute is whether we should baptised "in Jesus name" only or "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". Another argument that goes on and on is whether baptism should be by immersion only or whether pouring water over the head is acceptable.
According to the Didache (probably dated about 70 AD) , also know as "The Teaching of The Twelve Apostles"
“And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. But if you have no living [running] water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.” (chap 7)

To completely comment on this I would need full knowledge of what "Having said all these things" were. But with what I have here it is pretty much simply saying baptize with what you have and in a way that is conducive to the surroundings. When something isn't spelled out in detail in scripture, that means it is not a detail that matters theologically or changes any already given and does not affect salvation.

2. Another argument about baptism is, does it regenerate us?
Justin Martyr wrote extensively in the 2nd century
"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, 'Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.'...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles" (The First Apology 61:14-17 [inter A.D. 148-155]).

Again: what is the "what they were taught?" No content for me to evaluate through. However scripture the beseeching God in fasting for prayer for remission of former sins, though not necessarily a bad thing to do, is not what saves and is not in the NT. And baptism itself does not cause the rebirth. In the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus that is referenced Jesus presents the rebirth as first and from above and a work of the Holy Spirit and baptism an outward expression of what has happened internally. Romans 6:3-7; Col 2:12

3. Another long running argument is was Peter ever in Rome.
Irenaeus of Lyon was a disciple if Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John. He writes
"Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church" (Against Heresies, 3, 1:1)

Not of theological importance.

4, What did Jesus mean by “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (John 3:5)?
Was the water physical water or the word of God (ref Eph 5:26)?

The answer to these questions are given in the Bible and therefore that is where we must find them. I have neither the time nor inclination to do that here.

John didn't say but it is clarified by Irenaeus of Lyon
" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

What Irenaeus says must be checked with what is in scripture as it is contained there. What he did here was allegorize where there was no allegory. There is no mention of sacred water in scripture, or that water washes away our sins.

Note that, as Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John, he is equivalent to the faithful people of 2Tim 2:2

Who someone is a disciple of is not the credentials we use to determine who is faithful or not. Even Jesus' disciples before the cross were constantly misunderstanding and misstating what He said. And there were disciples who hung around the apostles and later distorted his teaching. In 2 Tim Paul was saying, stated a different way, teachers should be faithful to the apostolic doctrine, or not be teachers.

 

[God's Truth]

Almost half the NT was written by Paul, who never claimed to have been an eye witness to anything Jesus ever said or did outside of his dream encounter.

So you don't believe the scriptures? You think Paul only dream encountered Jesus? Can you prove that with scripture?

 

[The_drake_]

So you don't believe the scriptures? You think Paul only dream encountered Jesus? Can you prove that with scripture?

Still waiting here GT.

 

[God's Truth]

Proof in scripture? Where is it? You told me you could back all of your version of God's truth up with scripture.

Matthew was anonymous, how can you prove using scripture who wrote it without going outside of scripture to the fathers?

Luke was anonymous, how can you prove it who wrote it or what they saw without relying on Ireneus?

Mark was anonymous, etc

No where in scripture do these authors identify themselves, they are identified by the Fathers later, outside of scripture.

How can you say Paul saw and walked with earthly Jesus when acts clearly rejects this?

It doesn't matter if you think it was by anonymous people.

Luke 1:1-4 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Just the way the New Testament was written it is obvious it was by eye witnesses.

No one has to go outside the Bible to know God's Truth.

Jesus walked the earth and WE KNOW PEOPLE SAW HIM FACE TO FACE.

There are people here who are trying to say the perfect hasn't come yet because we don't see Jesus face to face.

However, the perfect has come because people have seen him face to face.

Paul was unnaturally born as an apostle, but he still saw Jesus after his ascension, as many did.

 

[God's Truth]

None of this supports your supposition

I told you that you wouldn't be able to see it.
Where do you think your mere denial is any defense anyways?

 

[God's Truth]

The four gospels did not exist until mid second century. About half of Paul's letters are merely attributed to him. 2 Peter was written long after Peter was dead.

That is just someone's opinions that tickled your ears.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It is quite natural that there are different understandings of God's sovereignty and original sin. Only one is true however and that would be the one presented by God Himself in His word. What God says means what it means, not whatever people decide it means. And it is possible to arrive at the meaning of what God says. Not easy sometimes, but possible. The reason it isn't always easy is because of the nature of man to move everything into a place where it suits what we want it to believe.

This is why we are told to check our doctrine often, I think...

 

[The_drake_]

Just the way the New Testament was written it is obvious it was by eye witnesses.

No it isn't, not at all. This could easily be a compilation of compilations of eyewitness accounts from 100 years ago. The gospels borrowed word for word from each other, is that something eyewitnesses is do, or someone copying someone else?

Jesus walked the earth and WE KNOW PEOPLE SAW HIM FACE TO FACE.

People did, but you know that is not the issue. It's whether these writers saw him face to face, sine that is what you claimed and still cannot prove with scripture.

There are people here who are trying to say the perfect hasn't come yet because we don't see Jesus face to face.

However, the perfect has come because people have seen him face to face.

Okay, but that isn't what you claimed. And it's been proven that you do need to go outside of scripture to prove what you claim.

It is bizarre that you would use that qoute from luke, the author is saying these accounts are handed down to him, suggesting strongly he did not walk with Christ and see him face to face while he was on earth.

I think that finishes this little back and fourth.

I do believe the gospels GT, I just wanted to show you that you are fallible and cannot back up nearly as much of what you claim as certainly true by scripture alone. This is why it is important to have humility and acknowledge the importance of the Fathers and the opinions of others as our guides and not just trust in your own mortal intellect alone.

It can be, and has here, been provably in error. So it is with all of us.