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Sissy
Guest
If Jesus is a descendant from the loins of David (which He is) then He is a descendant of Adam.
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shroom
Guest
Absolutely. On his mother's side.
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Arial
Guest
Sin nature pertains to the nature of a human. Just as the nature of anything pertains to what it is. It is in the nature dogs to walk on four legs, the nature of man to walk on two. It is the nature of a dog to follow instinct. It is the nature of man to sin against His maker by following his desires. "The life in in the blood" pertains to life being in the blood (no blood, no life.) In mankind since the fall, that life contains our nature to sin. I am not saying it is an ingredient that can be isolated.
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TrevorL
Guest
Greetings again patience, Arial and shroom,
Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV): 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 5:7-9 (KJV): 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Kind regards
Trevor
That's fair enough, but today we also talk about DNA, and also the Divine pattern that like begets like. Jesus was the son of Mary his mother. There is a great emphasis of Jesus being a descendant of David also. God could have wipe out every aspect of his hereditary line and characteristics if he so desired, but I believe he was made a little lower than the angels to overcome directly all sins and the effects of sin. Adam could choose, but we suffer the motivation of the lusts within, and Jesus overcame these by the Word of God and his meditation on the Word as demonstrated in his first temptation in the wilderness.
We do not sin when we reject the lust James 1:14-15. I also consider that the following indicates his real struggle against sin, not just a simple choice:
Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV): 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 5:7-9 (KJV): 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
I believe that he opened the way by being our representative. We still die.
The Trinity's claim is a contradiction and an impossibility. Jesus grew in wisdom Luke 2:40,52.
Jesus' descent from God did not wipe out his descent from Mary. Both parents contribute to the hereditary of the child.
Kind regards
Trevor
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Arial
Guest
Does God have sinful desires? Of course not. And He is the standard of being without sin. We are never going to agree so it is best to let it go. When you bring this Hebrews scripture and emphasize what you do, keep in mind that we do not all have the same things that tempt us. What tempts one person may not be a temptation to the next. And Jesus certainly was not tempted by everything that we are. It is simply saying that he was as subject to them as we are. They were all around Him, just as they are all around us.
Jesus was not IMO tempted to disobey God---and even if He were He did not give in to it. You see, that is what temptation is, being tempted to disobey God. We do not have to have a sin nature for that to be the case. What would not be human would be if He did not agonize over what He was to face on the cross and separation from God.
And therein lies the rub. Never the twain shall meet between the Trinitarian and the Unitarian. The believers flesh dies but he does not. In Christ he has eternal life. The dead in Christ will be raised to life and our corruption will put on incorruption.
If God exists as triune, it is not a contradiction or an impossibility. That is just man saying what he can't imagine can't be. Jesus grew in wisdom because He came to us as a man. Like begets like. God begets deity. Mary brings forth a son. Two natures in one person, distinct, not mixed.
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TrevorL
Guest
Greetings again Arial,
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus was a human.
Yes, we have stated our differences.
Yes, but a lot of his trials and temptations were much greater than ours. He was also much more discerning of what sin is, and we often react in pride without realising this. If Jesus was returned to have the same as Adam before the fall then I do not consider this to agree with Hebrews 4:15: "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
Perhaps his trials and submission in the Garden were the most severe, sweat like great drops of blood, as he faced the reality of his impending trial and crucifixion.
Shroom is a Unitarian but believes in substitution. I believe representation is a simple but completely comprehensive concept, that Jesus opened the way for us to follow, and his intercession grants us forgiveness. He is the captain of our salvation and we follow by belief and identification in the same process of death and resurrection by an affectionate belief of the Gospel of the kingdom and name and identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus by water baptism. Jesus needed to be saved out of death and God granted him life.
If..... "Two natures in one person, distinct, not mixed." Did Jesus have two minds as a child Luke 2:40,52 ?
Kind regards
Trevor
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patience
Guest
Yes, there is DNA. In normal biological procreation, the male contributes 50% of DNA via sperm, the mother contributes 50% via the egg. We know that Mary carried the egg but I can't say that God contributed the sperm - nor can I say that God has actual DNA being that He is Spirit.
All I know is Mary was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:18); that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:20); and the Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God. So whatever was needed for Mary to conceive was given via the the Holy Spirit, the power of God. (Note: the Holy Spirit is the power of God not a third person of the Trinity or else Jesus would have been called the Son of the Holy Spirit.)
Yes, Jesus was a descendant of David via Mary.
Just because Jesus was without the "sin nature" doesn't mean that He did not overcome sin or the effect of sin - he was one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15) The first Adam was tempted and failed through disobedience; the second Adam was tempted and succeeded through obedience.
Evidently we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Arial
Guest
Adam was temped without having a sin nature.
Of course not. Jesus was utterly unique, none like Him before or ever again. And in a way that is beyond all of humanity to be able to adequately define, express, or explain as we have nothing to compare it with. Humans define and understand things by making comparisons. As far as I am concerned, the Bible makes clear that God is triune, that Jesus of necessity by what scripture tell us of Him and our condition, that He must be more than a created creature. That it is God Himself who must save us, not a representative creature, as none other than God can. And that is all I am going to say on the subject of the trinity.
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L.B.
Guest
32“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
“ ‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ c
37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
40“Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.” (Mattew 10: 32-42, NIV)
It seems the passing on through the mother was negated.
Anyone now has access. No sides anymore.
The matrilinear/ patrilinear system has been done with.
Whoever is the new linear: whoever would believe in Him.
The first Adam is negated by the second... Oh what a wretched state:
"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Romans 7:24-25)
Not my lineage at all. Thank Christ! (ah just realised: not my lineage should say all our lineage now the curtain is torn)
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shroom
Guest
???
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L.B.
Guest
Just reread it.
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shroom
Guest
I did.
The topic is whether Jesus Christ is a blood descendant of David. He is, but on his mother's side. His Father is God.