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What happens to people without faith after this life?

Bladerunner said:
I hope I don't cross boundaries here. While the spiritual picture may well look like what you said,
John 3:5 was specifically speaking of man...."Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Literally this could not have been in the beginning simply because Man was born (made of the clay of the earth)...However, every birth after the fall of man, every birth was born of water....and it had to break (ladies should know) before the baby could be born...Even in a Caesarean, the protective water sack must be broken...

I believe this to be a prophecy that I cannot find anyone else speaking about....In the near future, we will have in our power to create life through in a petri dish. We have already created clones..etc. Will these beings (our DNA) have a soul? I don't know but I don't think they will be able to enter the Kingdom of GOD.

Rebirth includes the spirit with the Church (his Body) always...Even after death, our spirit will be with him in heaven awaiting 1 Thes 4:13-18..even to happen. We can see this happen again in Rev 6:9 where the souls of the martyred have to wait for their bretheren to be killed as well be fore they are redeemed.

Blade
Click to expand...
You are not crossing a line.
But to see the imagery you have to look with a wider lens ------- "life" (including man) all sprang forth from the water and Spirt of Genesis 1, a whole new creation of new life.

And when you are born of water and spirit (born again) you are a new creation of new life.

But that doesn't mean it's the one and only way to see the verse.
A lot of verses have more than one layer to them.
 
Bladerunner said:
what do you mean by :)"where does this idea come from?"

Blade
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I mean exactly what I said. Where does the idea come from that the disembodied spirit is the soul of a dead person. Where does the concept of a "disembodied spirit" come from?
 
shroom said:
I mean exactly what I said. Where does the idea come from that the disembodied spirit is the soul of a dead person. Where does the concept of a "disembodied spirit" come from?
Click to expand...
disembodied = removed from the Body plus Spirit =Soul.
Jesus tells us when the body of a true believer is dead, the soul (spirit) will be with Him. This is the spiritual part of the Church (His Body).

Let me say this.....Steven was dying in Acts 7:55,56.... (KJV).."But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Here a dying man sees Jesus standing beside GOD (the father). He is actually being greeted by Jesus as His soul departs from His body.


2 Cor 12:4.....Paul was caught up to heaven... and in Rev 4:1..John was caught up to the throne room in heaven......

have a great evening


Blade
 
Bladerunner said:
disembodied = removed from the Body plus Spirit =Soul.
Click to expand...
Where is that in the Bible?
Bladerunner said:
Jesus tells us when the body of a true believer is dead, the soul (spirit) will be with Him.
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Where does Jesus tell us that?

The Bible (which you believe Jesus authored..) states that when a person dies he is dead, with no thought, reason, emotion, and he cannot praise God (Ecc 9:4-6, 10; Psalms 6:5; 30:9; 49:12; 115:17; Isa 38:18; and more).
Bladerunner said:
This is the spiritual part of the Church (His Body).
Click to expand...
Where does the Bible say this?
Bladerunner said:
Let me say this.....Steven was dying in Acts 7:55,56.... (KJV).."But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Here a dying man sees Jesus standing beside GOD (the father).
Click to expand...
Yes. Stephen got a vision of God and Jesus Christ as he was dying.
Bladerunner said:
He is actually being greeted by Jesus as His soul departs from His body.
Click to expand...
It doesn't say that. You're reading that into the text, Blade.
Bladerunner said:
2 Cor 12:4.....Paul was caught up to heaven...
Click to expand...
Yes. Paul got revelation about the future.
Bladerunner said:
and in Rev 4:1..John was caught up to the throne room in heaven......
Click to expand...
Also revelation. A vision

Death is an enemy (1 Cor 15:26), not the gateway to the afterlife. People who have died are dead, and will remain so until the rapture or one of the upcoming resurrections. Nobody has ascended into heaven except for the Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:13).

It's very sad and unfortunate that most Christians essentially believe what the devil told Even in Gen 3:4, that when you die you aren't really dead.
 
Step One- The parable of the seed/sower. The seed comes from the Creator, it is planted in soil and grows to become a 'plant.' The plant grows for a season, flowers and produces fruit which contains seeds, some of which are preserved, set aside for planting in a new season. If you like, these set aside seeds, you can call 'the elect.' The fruit, and the seeds it produces is the glory of the plant and the planter.

Step Two- The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Step Three- Jesus said— “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Step Four- Jesus said-- “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

And he told this story...

“A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. “And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ “And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

This is where it gets interesting because elsewhere (John 15) Jesus explains this parable above in detail. He says- “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

He says explicitly in John 15:5 what he is talking about- “I am the vine, you are the branches."

The Father is the vineyard owner (vinedresser/vinekeeper/gardener).
The Christ (Jesus) is the vine.
You (we) are the branches.

And when one of these branches does NOT bear fruit (per the OP question for this thread) then it is cut off.... but not immediately. God has a three strikes rule.
 
Mr E said:
Step One- The parable of the seed/sower. The seed comes from the Creator, it is planted in soil and grows to become a 'plant.' The plant grows for a season, flowers and produces fruit which contains seeds, some of which are preserved, set aside for planting in a new season. If you like, these set aside seeds, you can call 'the elect.' The fruit, and the seeds it produces is the glory of the plant and the planter.

Step Two- The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Step Three- Jesus said— “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Step Four- Jesus said-- “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

And he told this story...

“A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. “And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ “And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

This is where it gets interesting because elsewhere (John 15) Jesus explains this parable above in detail. He says- “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

He says explicitly in John 15:5 what he is talking about- “I am the vine, you are the branches."

The Father is the vineyard owner (vinedresser/vinekeeper/gardener).
The Christ (Jesus) is the vine.
You (we) are the branches.

And when one of these branches does NOT bear fruit (per the OP question for this thread) then it is cut off.... but not immediately. God has a three strikes rule.
Click to expand...
Interesting on the three strike rule....Not sure were you are going with this but will keep tuned in to this thread

Blade
 
The Three Strike Rule comes directly from that parable---

If I explained it in terms of seeds and plants and fruit and seasons you might understand it in that context. But that's just a way of looking at it. We can all understand that a seed is planted, grows, flowers and produces fruit that has seed in it. The first fruits of a growing season are set aside and preserved so that no matter what disaster may come later, there are seeds set apart to begin again. Only a fool sets nothing aside, and instead consumes everything he grows thinking "I'll set some seed aside later for next year." Then locusts come and destroy his crop, or hail strikes the plants down before they even flower, or floods wash everything away and he has nothing stored away for spring planting and a new season. He is ruined.

With seeds and such we understand the natural concept of seasons. We understand easily because we see it with our own eyes. It's not sad, or bad to think that from the very moment those seeds were set in soil it was for one purpose only-- that is, with the hope and expectation that they will produce fruit and also- within that idea the greater purpose is that it might be good fruit, pleasing, nourishing, satisfying and so on-- because from the outset it was grown for consumption. Not shocking when we think about grapes, for example. The grapes are grown because the Vineyard Owner knows that after the growing season, the grapes will be harvested, gathered, washed, and crushed and from that crushing the blood of the grape will flow freely and from that, another process that produces good wine. That wine and the hope that it will be good is the very reason that the seeds were planted in the earth.

All of this is natural and expected and good because it is by design and as intended by the Creator. It all becomes unsettling when we apply the key that was given in Step One and that parable he explained to mean that the seed was the word and the soil was man. In another parable he puts the same idea in terms of this vine that has grown in soil and produced many branches, some that produce fruit and some do not. The ones that produce fruit are pruned so they become even more productive, the ones that produce no fruit are cut off entirely and destroyed.

This is figurative language, not intended to explicitly detail how everything works. It's used to convey an idea of how things work. Yet, scripture is consistent in this regard. When scripture tells us that we come from the soil, in essence that we physically come from the earth-- from dirt- Adam, Jesus doesn't contradict the idea... When he explains the parable, it's clear- we are the soil that he describes. We are the soil in the vineyard. It's humbling. Yet the seed and the soil alike though they are common- there is something miraculous that occurs and this is something we call LIFE.
 
Mr E said:
The Three Strike Rule comes directly from that parable---

If I explained it in terms of seeds and plants and fruit and seasons you might understand it in that context. But that's just a way of looking at it. We can all understand that a seed is planted, grows, flowers and produces fruit that has seed in it. The first fruits of a growing season are set aside and preserved so that no matter what disaster may come later, there are seeds set apart to begin again. Only a fool sets nothing aside, and instead consumes everything he grows thinking "I'll set some seed aside later for next year." Then locusts come and destroy his crop, or hail strikes the plants down before they even flower, or floods wash everything away and he has nothing stored away for spring planting and a new season. He is ruined.

With seeds and such we understand the natural concept of seasons. We understand easily because we see it with our own eyes. It's not sad, or bad to think that from the very moment those seeds were set in soil it was for one purpose only-- that is, with the hope and expectation that they will produce fruit and also- within that idea the greater purpose is that it might be good fruit, pleasing, nourishing, satisfying and so on-- because from the outset it was grown for consumption. Not shocking when we think about grapes, for example. The grapes are grown because the Vineyard Owner knows that after the growing season, the grapes will be harvested, gathered, washed, and crushed and from that crushing the blood of the grape will flow freely and from that, another process that produces good wine. That wine and the hope that it will be good is the very reason that the seeds were planted in the earth.

All of this is natural and expected and good because it is by design and as intended by the Creator. It all becomes unsettling when we apply the key that was given in Step One and that parable he explained to mean that the seed was the word and the soil was man. In another parable he puts the same idea in terms of this vine that has grown in soil and produced many branches, some that produce fruit and some do not. The ones that produce fruit are pruned so they become even more productive, the ones that produce no fruit are cut off entirely and destroyed.

This is figurative language, not intended to explicitly detail how everything works. It's used to convey an idea of how things work. Yet, scripture is consistent in this regard. When scripture tells us that we come from the soil, in essence that we physically come from the earth-- from dirt- Adam, Jesus doesn't contradict the idea... When he explains the parable, it's clear- we are the soil that he describes. We are the soil in the vineyard. It's humbling. Yet the seed and the soil alike though they are common- there is something miraculous that occurs and this is something we call LIFE.
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm dense, but what are the three strikes?
 
Mattathias said:
They are 1, 2 and 3. No arguing with the umpire. You’re out.

Baseball is God’s sports gift to the thinking man, imho.
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Amen. I love baseball and all of the possibilities that come with every pitch. I quit watching TV so I watch on YouTube sometimes but the Cardinals weren't doing well last I checked. Indeed, @Mr E may be referring to the three strikes rule here but hopefully it takes a lot of major problems before anybody gets a strike.

So far, I want to thank every member here for being thoughtful, civil, polite and patient in our discussions and interactions. I hope we grow and thrive in Christ and with our fellowship here and that we attract lots of new members. It takes time.
 
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