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MatthewG
Guest
What are your thoughts?
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Mr E
Guest
An age-old question.
What happens to anything planted in a garden? Grown for a purpose, the plant springs to life, flowers and produces fruit. The first fruits are set aside so that there is seed available for next season's planting. Then the harvest where the fruits are gathered for that purpose for which they were planted and grown. Strange as that may seem. Grapes are crushed, wheat is threshed and ground to powder, olives are pressed, and so on... each for a purpose.
But you are asking about trees that produce no fruit. They are pruned, branches are cut off and destroyed, so that the tree itself might then produce fruit in a new season. The ground around the tree is broken up, the tree is pruned and watered with the hopes of a better season ahead.
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shroom
Guest
There won't be any second chances. This life is when people must make their choice.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
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Mr E
Guest
I have no problem with that shroom.... but that's not the only way of understanding. There are other references that I'd share if I thought you would be open to listening.
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shroom
Guest
I would be curious to know any references you have that say people will be given a second chance.
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Mr E
Guest
I have to run out for a bit, but I think that's what this thread is all about and I'd love to share. Thank you for being open to it. I'll respond when I return from this little errand. Finishing up a bathroom project.
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Ted T
Guest
The wicked, ie , non-elect, RETURN to Sheol from when they were sown, planted , not created, into mankind.
My explanation of this:
Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / RETURN to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse.
TURN BACK; Strong’s H7725 shûb - shoob
A primitive root; to turn back, to return
• to turn back
• to return, come or go back
• to return unto, go back, come back
English Standard Version
The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
Berean Study Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
New American Standard Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.
IF the wicked RETURN to Sheol, logic and ordinary use of language indicates that they were there before but left. We have humans coming from Sheol and then returning back to there.
We also have Christ telling us that the good seed, the people of the kingdom are sown, planted, into the world by the Son of Man and the people of the evil one are sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. Where were they before they were sown, moved, here? And sown cannot mean to be created as the devil does this sowing also and he can't create people.
Does this parable refer to the moving of people from Sheol attested to by Ps 9:17? How can this be when orthodoxy has already declared it means something else and cannot be a reference hint to our pce. And we got the King James Bible to keep us straight (or to hide the fact of PCE) about the orthodox interpretation, that is: The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God. ignoring to mention the actual word used referred to a return to where they were before, an opposite thought to turn into which implies a going on but in a new direction...
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Ted T
Guest
G'day shroom,
While I accept the sentiment, I tend to reject that we make our choice in this life of being enslaved to sin and only saved by grace, thinking that our choice was prior to our election or condemnation for our various free will (pre-sin) choices.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: doesn't actually say we have only one life but that we are judged after only one life. Iow, if the reports by the pagans of living multiple lives are not lies then this verse does not dispute their multiple lives but only disputes their belief that their extra lives can have a redeeming feature due to karma.
Any extra life cannot help them to come to Christ in the least. Their sin is eternal and unforgivable, they are doomed after one life. That is what this verse suggests where as Jn 3:18 suggests they are condemned before birth or death, ie, already.
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Bladerunner
Guest
you forgot what the KJV said about Psa 9:17.
If one looks carefully, the Masoretic Text gives us :"יָשׁוּבוּ רְשָׁעִים לִשְׁאוֹלָה כָּל־גּוֹיִם שְׁכֵחֵי אֱלֹהִֽים׃" and the Septuagint LXX says:"ἀποστραφήτωσαν οἱ ἁμαρτωλοὶ εἰς τὸν ᾅδην πάντα τὰ ἔθνη τὰ ἐπιλανθανόμενα τοῦ θεοῦ"
The English translation for both of these is :"."The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Notice it does not say "RETURNED"
Blade
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Mr E
Guest
Sorry, I didn't mean to skip out on this conversation. I got busy, then I got reassigned (by my wife) then some things went sideways here on the forum and then I took a break and watched a movie instead of coming back to this.
My wife made cookies.
If we can approach this as a discussion over a cup of coffee
-I'm happy to have it with you. Like you and me and Matthew and Blade and Ted are sitting on the patio talking about this very interesting topic as friends would do, talking about all kinds of things under the sun. We are just talking. I'm not trying, or needing to convince you or anyone else of anything. I'm just offering my perspective. You asked what I thought, and I'm telling you. Take it or leave it.Like my wife's cookies. I'm happy to share with you, such as I've got. They go great with coffee, but there is no obligation that you must try one-- it's simply an offering, if you'd like to partake. No demand, no insistence, no hard feelings if you say no thank you. And there are other folks nearby listening in who are not actual participants in the conversation whatever it turns out to be, but if they were to join in, I'd offer those same cookies. What you won't see is me ramming cookies down anyone's throat. Yet we see folks doing that all the time. Not just cookies or coffee that is meant to be shared. This is how many folks approach Christianity- the Gospel. I'm gonna stick this newspaper in your face, and you sir, are going to eat it. Praise the Lord!
So with that preface-- pull up a chair and as time allows I will respond to your interest in what happens to people 'without faith' when they die. I had an up close and personal experience of this sort just this past Saturday when our pastor's wife took her only life. Would that qualify as someone who lacked faith? Maybe. Some might insist it would. Some would insist that by the evidence of her hanging herself 'she was never even a Christian at all.' That's nonsense. And I'll explain why from a biblical perspective with those references you requested.
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Ted T
Guest
But Blade, the English is ONLY an interpretation of the word shûb which means return, not to turn into, as the concordances say, making the English interpretation false.
I do not understand using the KJV as a reference, not as scripture. In the verse, the kjv uses a false word to help us avoid any hint of pce because they were committed to the created on earth doctrine and had to hide the hint of pce that is in this verse.
If the Septuagint uses a Greek word meaning to turn into rather than to return, then it is false too (my Greek is not so strong) aas per
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(17) The wicked shall be turned into hell—This is a most unfortunate rendering. The true translation is, the wicked shall return, as in LXX. and Vulg. (not “be turned”)
Ellicott
Many disagree with the kjv:
Even Benson who prefers to turn into gives it the correct reading:
Benson Commentary...and, into this place men may be said to be turned back, or to return, because it is their own proper place, (Acts 1:25,) to which they belong, and from which they have their wicked qualities, as being of their father the devil.
Barnes supports the word to turn back but studiously rejects the idea of return...
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Shall be turned - Shall turn back, or be turned from their present course. The idea is, that they were now pursuing a certain course, but that they would be turned back from that, or would fail and retreat; and instead of going on to victory, would be defeated, and would sink into hell.
Gill pays lip service also:
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
The wicked shall be turned into hell,.... Some render it, "shall return to the grave" (p), to the earth,
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
17. R.V. rightly:
The wicked shall return to Sheol,
but consider that the return is a referencing our return to dust, ignoring that it say Sheol which is a place, ie, they have changed Sheol into what they think is the proper metaphor for Sheol...:
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
But why ‘return?’ Man must ‘return’ unto the ground from which he was taken, to the dust of which he was made,
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 17. - The wicked shall be tamed into hell; literally, shall be turned backwards to Sheol, or Hades; i.e. shall be removed from earth to the place of departed spirits.
which avoids the word return and its problems by translating it as shall be turned backwards as if that does not mean to return...
By itself this verse accepted at face value (ie, not eisegetically corrupted) is almost enough but with the weight of the over 100 verses or verse clusters with similar hints, it is crushing.
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shroom
Guest
Ted, Blade is KJVOnly. For him, the KJV is the only Bible. ...just a statement of fact.
Concerning your view on "the wicked return to sheol". When people die they go to sheol, which is simply the grave, or the state of death. Everyone, whether they are good or evil, goes to sheol when they die. At judgment, the wicked will return to sheol, permanently. IOW, they will be dead permanently.
There is no hint of PCE in the Bible.