The Trinity

[Arial]

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And yet you say He turned away from that desire, when He made salvation contingent upon the will of man who is at enmity against Him, making sure only the brightest and best and very few at that, would be saved. Go figure.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Who is the "us" Peter is writing to?

 

[shroom]

And yet you say He turned away from that desire

I said no such thing, and God has not turned from that desire.

when He made salvation contingent upon the will of man who is at enmity against Him,

Salvation has always been contingent on the will of man. People have free will.

making sure only the brightest and best and very few at that, would be saved. Go figure.

1 Cor 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Who is the "us" Peter is writing to?

I am very familiar with how Calvinists get around Peter's clear simple statement.

 

[Arial]

I said no such thing, and God has not turned from that desire.

You simply to not understand the implications of your words. If God desired that all would be saved, why did He establish a way that insured that they wouldn't all be saved? Or does this also fall under your doctrine that God is not sovereign---or only sovereign until it comes to man's will overriding His?

1 Cor 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.

Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

It is meaningless to quote scriptures, even if you actually believe them, when in practicality, if some choose rightly and some do not, we are left with the surety, that if that is the case, the ones who choose rightly have more good in them, and are in some way brighter and better than those who do not. You see, it is your doctrine that makes some people "special" in their own selves, not the doctrine of predestination which says. as the Bible does, that God's choice is according to nothing that the individual possesses or has to offer. And you leave out and ignore the verses that come before 1 Cor 1:26 which speak of God calling those Christians Paul is writing to, which completely undoes your use of this verse anyway.

I am very familiar with how Calvinists get around Peter's clear simple statement

The arrogance of those who think they know more and are better theologians than Calvin is mind boggling. They put it forth with not even a hint of embarrassment. Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, Calvin was arguably the best theologian given to the church after the first century. You and your leaders can't begin to touch his genius and skill and concern for truth. But then heretics from his day forward have always hated him.

It is you who are ignoring Peter's clear simple statement. There is no doubt whatsoever, that he is writing to believers, of which he is one, and so quite NATURALLY when he says "us" he means them and himself. You and your leaders do the dance by removing all gramatical logic from the passage to say that all of a sudden, and with no segue or explanation, he now means all people of all time and in every place.

 

[shroom]

You simply to not understand the implications of your words.

I do understand the implication of my words.

If God desired that all would be saved, why did He establish a way that insured that they wouldn't all be saved?

Clearly, God does want all people to be saved, but God wants people who want Him. He left it up to people to decide.

Or does this also fall under your doctrine that God is not sovereign---or only sovereign until it comes to man's will overriding His?

God gave His created beings free will. We are not pawns on God's chessboard. We are not God's puppets.

It is meaningless to quote scriptures, even if you actually believe them, when in practicality, if some choose rightly and some do not, we are left with the surety, that if that is the case, the ones who choose rightly have more good in them, and are in some way brighter and better than those who do not.

Or more humble, or wiser. It is a humble, wise choice to believe in God.

You see, it is your doctrine that makes some people "special" in their own selves, not the doctrine of predestination which says. as the Bible does, that God's choice is according to nothing that the individual possesses or has to offer. And you leave out and ignore the verses that come before 1 Cor 1:26 which speak of God calling those Christians Paul is writing to, which completely undoes your use of this verse anyway.

God is calling everyone, Arial. He wants everyone to be saved.

The arrogance of those who think they know more and are better theologians than Calvin is mind boggling.

Why? What special "in" with God did Calvin have? What about Joseph Smith? Why don't you believe him? Why aren't you a mormon?

They put it forth with not even a hint of embarrassment. Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, Calvin was arguably the best theologian given to the church after the first century. You and your leaders can't begin to touch his genius and skill and concern for truth. But then heretics from his day forward have always hated him.

You have decided to follow John Calvin. It's your choice.

It is you who are ignoring Peter's clear simple statement. There is no doubt whatsoever, that he is writing to believers, of which he is one, and so quite NATURALLY when he says "us" he means them and himself. You and your leaders do the dance by removing all gramatical logic from the passage to say that all of a sudden, and with no segue or explanation, he now means all people of all time and in every place.

2 Peter 3:9 does not say "...not willing that any of us Christians should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Christians have already come to repentance.

 

[Arial]

I do understand the implication of my words.

Duh, Of course you think you do.

Clearly, God does want all people to be saved, but God wants people who want Him. He left it up to people to decide.

So you think even though the Bible says all are at enmity with Him and none seek Him, no not one He still expected and hoped that this reality might not be real? That some might want in Him anyway?

God gave His created beings free will. We are not pawns on God's chessboard. We are not God's puppets.

You have yet to prove that God gave us free will. You do not even realize that neither Jesus or the apostles ever spoke of it. That it came into the Bible from the outside. That is was completely concocted by men who desired a better God and more control over their own lives (which is what was so appealing and caused it to catch fire like brush and thorns) not to mention a way to add massive amounts of notches for kingdom reward on their belts. And that you can only see the grace and mercy and loving kindness of God in His regenerating a person unto faith, as being pieces on a chessboard or puppets, is very telling.

Or more humble, or wiser.

There you go. Only the humble and wise choose God. Wouldn't they be better people than those who are not humble and wise?

God is calling everyone, Arial. He wants everyone to be saved.

You worship a God of momentous failure then,But as long as your free will remains intact, who cares, right?

Why? What special "in" with God did Calvin have? What about Joseph Smith? Why don't you believe him? Why aren't you a mormon?

Everything Calvin had, God gave Him, and for the purposes in which they were used. Calvin knew this. Calvin didn't choose God, God chose Him to bring light to the dark ages, and the true gospel back to the people. Why don't I believe Joseph Smith? Because his message does not align with the Bible. Why a I not a mormon? Same reason, plus it is based on new prophecy---that which is not in the Bible.

You have decided to follow John Calvin. It's your choice.

I am not following Calvin. Haters like to say that. They think it gives force to their argument, and substance to their belief. It doesn't. Calvin followed the Bible. I follow the Bible too.

2 Peter 3:9 does not say "...not willing that any of us Christians should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Christians have already come to repentance.

Follow along. If Peter is writing to believers, when he says "us" he is referring to believers. Who have, yes, already come to repentance. Some who are called have not yet come to repentance, but will. God's long-suffering is usward---the called (not your definition of that but the real and obvious one) that none of the "us" should perish. There is an exact number, since God knew them from before the foundation of the world.

 

[shroom]

Duh, Of course you think you do.

So you think even though the Bible says all are at enmity with Him and none seek Him, no not one He still expected and hoped that this reality might not be real? That some might want in Him anyway?

You have yet to prove that God gave us free will. You do not even realize that neither Jesus or the apostles ever spoke of it. That it came into the Bible from the outside. That is was completely concocted by men who desired a better God and more control over their own lives (which is what was so appealing and caused it to catch fire like brush and thorns) not to mention a way to add massive amounts of notches for kingdom reward on their belts. And that you can only see the grace and mercy and loving kindness of God in His regenerating a person unto faith, as being pieces on a chessboard or puppets, is very telling.

There you go. Only the humble and wise choose God. Wouldn't they be better people than those who are not humble and wise?

You worship a God of momentous failure then,But as long as your free will remains intact, who cares, right?

Everything Calvin had, God gave Him, and for the purposes in which they were used. Calvin knew this. Calvin didn't choose God, God chose Him to bring light to the dark ages, and the true gospel back to the people. Why don't I believe Joseph Smith? Because his message does not align with the Bible. Why a I not a mormon? Same reason, plus it is based on new prophecy---that which is not in the Bible.

I am not following Calvin. Haters like to say that. They think it gives force to their argument, and substance to their belief. It doesn't. Calvin followed the Bible. I follow the Bible too.

Follow along. If Peter is writing to believers, when he says "us" he is referring to believers. Who have, yes, already come to repentance. Some who are called have not yet come to repentance, but will. God's long-suffering is usward---the called (not your definition of that but the real and obvious one) that none of the "us" should perish. There is an exact number, since God knew them from before the foundation of the world.

We remain at an impasse. Time will tell.

I'll leave you with God's words to Cain:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door...

People can choose to do well.

 

[Arial]

We remain at an impasse. Time will tell.

I'll leave you with God's words to Cain:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door...

People can choose to do well.

I guess that is one way to avoid having to answer the questions.

 

[shroom]

I guess that is one way to avoid having to answer the questions.

I have answered your questions many, many times. What's the point of doing so yet again?

 

[Arial]

I have answered your questions many, many times. What's the point of doing so yet again?

You didn't answer this one.

So you think even though the Bible says all are at enmity with Him and none seek Him, no not one He still expected and hoped that this reality might not be real? That some might want in Him anyway?

And you did not address a single thing I said in that post. You just walked away, presumably because you can't do so with inside the box thinking. Everytime I say something I will say it in a different way, from another angle, a different perspective, added or different nuance or focus, and more often than not, even when I am using the same scriptures, tying them in with something else in scripture, or different idea or point. (This greatly breaks up the monotony and boredom and is a boon to boot for my own training and learning. But it is also my natural way I suppose.) So, to say you have answered all my questions or that you have addressed all issues I bring up, is not true.

 

[shroom]

You didn't answer this one.

So you think even though the Bible says all are at enmity with Him and none seek Him, no not one He still expected and hoped that this reality might not be real? That some might want in Him anyway?

In your desperate attempt to defend Calvinism, you are cherry-picking. In Romans 3, Paul is quoting several scripture from the OT, which if you go and read the context of those verses you'll find that they are frequently talking about the wicked. And what about these people? Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil." Lot is called righteous, as are Daniel, Joseph of Arimathaea, Abel, Joseph, Cornelius, John the Baptist, Zacharias Simeon, and Elizabeth. There are more.

And you did not address a single thing I said in that post. You just walked away, presumably because you can't do so with inside the box thinking.

Still bickering and justifying it to boot. I didn't need to be corrected, I took no offense, other than your propensity for not being able to get beyond in the box thinking, and therefore having to nit pick about everything, understand nothing.

Which are we to do? Inside the box thinking, or outside the box thinking? Whichever one suites your purpose at the time?

Everytime I say something I will say it in a different way, from another angle, a different perspective, added or different nuance or focus, and more often than not, even when I am using the same scriptures, tying them in with something else in scripture, or different idea or point. (This greatly breaks up the monotony and boredom and is a boon to boot for my own training and learning. But it is also my natural way I suppose.)

Yes. You slightly modify your questions to try and trap people in their words. Who else did that?

So, to say you have answered all my questions or that you have addressed all issues I bring up, is not true.

It is true.

If you want to be a Calvinist, be a Calvinist. Nobody can stop you, it's your choice.

 

[Arial]

In your desperate attempt to defend Calvinism, you are cherry-picking. In Romans 3, Paul is quoting several scripture from the OT, which if you go and read the context of those verses you'll find that they are frequently talking about the wicked. And what about these people? Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil." Lot is called righteous, as are Daniel, Joseph of Arimathaea, Abel, Joseph, Cornelius, John the Baptist, Zacharias Simeon, and Elizabeth. There are more.

I am not desperately attempting to defend Calvinism. I am defending it. It is remarkably easy to do. All one has to do is read the Bible and think critically and clearly. Try reading Romans 1, 2, and 3 all together at one sitting sometime and see what you come up with, The are a complete unit, building from a beginning and reaching a conclusion. Here is the conclusion of who Paul is talking about. 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is not distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It is people who do not want to believe they fall into that horrendous category described by Paul, don't want to believe that they fall that far short of the glory of God. who try to make those OT quotes to be, not about them, but someone else. And all those people you mention? Learn the difference between righteous behaviour and living, and perfect righteousness that is required to dwell with God.

Which are we to do? Inside the box thinking, or outside the box thinking? Whichever one suites your purpose at the time?

Try reading those two sentences again. They are saying the same thing.

Yes. You slightly modify your questions to try and trap people in their words. Who else did that?

It isn't a matter of modifying my questions, and I am not really cunning enough to lay traps like that, but you have to find some reason to dismiss whatever I do. One reason I do it is pure innocent hope, that if I put it another way, you will see it. Too far outside the box I guess.

It is true.

You think you do but you have never actually given definitive support by your cherry picking answers. There is always another way to see it that is supported by---well, the word, but the word as seen through who that word also tells us God is. You only believe part of what God says about Himself. You draw the line and giving up your free will. A triune God. A sovereign God. The radical corruption of man (radical meaning every part of him, no untouched islands.)

 

[shroom]

I am not desperately attempting to defend Calvinism. I am defending it. It is remarkably easy to do. All one has to do is read the Bible and think critically and clearly. Try reading Romans 1, 2, and 3 all together at one sitting sometime and see what you come up with, The are a complete unit, building from a beginning and reaching a conclusion. Here is the conclusion of who Paul is talking about. 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is not distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It is people who do not want to believe they fall into that horrendous category described by Paul, don't want to believe that they fall that far short of the glory of God. who try to make those OT quotes to be, not about them, but someone else. And all those people you mention? Learn the difference between righteous behaviour and living, and perfect righteousness that is required to dwell with God.

Try reading those two sentences again. They are saying the same thing.

It isn't a matter of modifying my questions, and I am not really cunning enough to lay traps like that, but you have to find some reason to dismiss whatever I do. One reason I do it is pure innocent hope, that if I put it another way, you will see it. Too far outside the box I guess.

You think you do but you have never actually given definitive support by your cherry picking answers. There is always another way to see it that is supported by---well, the word, but the word as seen through who that word also tells us God is. You only believe part of what God says about Himself. You draw the line and giving up your free will. A triune God. A sovereign God. The radical corruption of man (radical meaning every part of him, no untouched islands.)

We understand the Bible differently, and it seems we will do so until Christ returns and sets one of us, if not both, straight.