The Lamb and the Scroll

[Sissy]

Revelation 8 ESV​

(1) When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.​

Not a silence everywhere, but in heaven.

The other place this word is used in NT is:

Acts 21 ESV​

(40) And when he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great hush, he addressed them in the Hebrew language, saying:​

This gives the impression that it was a demanded silence so that what was to be heard next would need to be heard without distraction.
Perhaps the silence in heaven was demanded by Christ so that what was heard next would have no distraction.

So what was heard next?
The prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8 ESV​

(3) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,​

(4) and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.​

​

Gives remembrance of:

Revelation 5 ESV​

(7) And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.​

(8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​

What were the prayers?
Perhaps the following:

Revelation 6 ESV​

(10) They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

And the Trumpet judgements follow.

 

[Sissy]

This is a wrong representation of a sealed scroll. on a sealed scroll: the Seals were written on the scroll and rolled up from the ending where the beginning would be first to be opened. the Seals are within the scroll just before the topic that is sealed. Opening one does not open another...

Seals....*1*2*3*4*5*6*7 *=seal

Blade

Perhaps.
But would John be able to see that it had 7 seals if 6 of them were hidden within the rolled up scroll?
Speculation welcome.

 

[Bladerunner]

Perhaps.
But would John be able to see that it had 7 seals if 6 of them were hidden within the rolled up scroll?
Speculation welcome.

Yes, I feel your pain.....There is numerous disputes on how a scroll was sealed, written upon and written vertically or horizontally, etc. This scroll was a title deed..A scroll written on the outside...

There is one where seven seals/strings are sealing the scroll like what you presented. From what I can find, on the scrolls that were this way, all seals had to be removed before the scroll was read. This may be so but why is it written as each seal has meaning?/. like I said, I feel your pain.

would be a good historical research question.

Blade

 

[Sissy]

This scroll was a title deed.

Huh??? How do you arrive at that?
When the seals are opened it seems to be about judgement on rebellious people, not a contract deed of property.
So I'm curious as to how you arrive at this is a title deed.
Can you elaborate?

John tends to use scattered imagery and terminology that would remind you of things already spoken of in scripture.

One place that has a scroll written on front and back is:

Ezekiel 2 ESV​

(9) And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and behold, a scroll of a book was in it.​

(10) And he spread it before me. And it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe.​

And places that have a sealed book, not to be opened till the end times is:

Daniel 12 ESV​

(4) But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

.​

.​

(9) He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.​

And another sealed book:

Isaiah 29 ESV​

(11) And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”​

 

[Mr E]

The "Lamb of GOD" is only spoken of in the NT....and hidden in the OT....There is no reason that the people of that time would put two and two together and believe their messiah would be the Lamb of GOD....For when He came, all they wanted was a king, a warrior that would shed them of the Roman Empire...When He did not do this, they Crucified Him and denied him His deity. Even In Isaiah 53, the most beautiful rendition of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Bible, they (the pharisees, etc) the leaders of the Temple, the Levi's ...did not know their messiah when they saw Him.

By the same token, my Grand father could not have known in His early years the meaning of 1/4 of the world dying during the coming war on earth (Rev. 6:7-8), a population equivalent to that United States and China today. This could not have happened, with arrows and swords or muskets and cannon balls. Only something akin to Sodom and Gamorrah such as Nuclear weapons that we have today.

Blade

Does it seem troublesome that there are vast groups of people, Christians and Jews alike who are waiting for exactly the same thing today-- a Messiah that comes to set up an earthly kingdom, a shedding of the world order and everything that includes? Was that Christ's agenda then? Is that the kingdom he spoke of... ever?

 

[Mr E]

Revelation 8 ESV​

(1) When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.​

Not a silence everywhere, but in heaven.

The other place this word is used in NT is:

Acts 21 ESV​

(40) And when he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great hush, he addressed them in the Hebrew language, saying:​

This gives the impression that it was a demanded silence so that what was to be heard next would need to be heard without distraction.
Perhaps the silence in heaven was demanded by Christ so that what was heard next would have no distraction.

So what was heard next?
The prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8 ESV​

(3) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,​

(4) and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.​

View attachment 131​

Gives remembrance of:

Revelation 5 ESV​

(7) And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.​

(8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​

What were the prayers?
Perhaps the following:

Revelation 6 ESV​

(10) They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

And the Trumpet judgements follow.

And in some churches even today-- a reenactment.

 

[Mr E]

Perhaps.
But would John be able to see that it had 7 seals if 6 of them were hidden within the rolled up scroll?
Speculation welcome.

Yes..... because he was there as it was being unrolled, seal by seal.

 

[Sissy]

@Bladerunner

Do you consider the 7 scroll judgments to be for all rebellious people of any nation or just for Israelites?

 

[Bladerunner]

@Bladerunner

Do you consider the 7 scroll judgments to be for all rebellious people of any nation or just for Israelites?

Both.... Daniel's 70th week is mostly to bring Israel (to the wall) the conclusion that Jesus was indeed their Messiah. In Rev. 12, we see those who do believe flee Judah with Satan trying to kill them. God saves many and protects them hence.

The Gentiles are getting punished for following the anti-christ and satan.

Is this what you ask for?

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Huh??? How do you arrive at that?
When the seals are opened it seems to be about judgement on rebellious people, not a contract deed of property.
So I'm curious as to how you arrive at this is a title deed.
Can you elaborate?

John tends to use scattered imagery and terminology that would remind you of things already spoken of in scripture.

One place that has a scroll written on front and back is:

Ezekiel 2 ESV​

(9) And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and behold, a scroll of a book was in it.​

(10) And he spread it before me. And it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe.​

And places that have a sealed book, not to be opened till the end times is:

Daniel 12 ESV​

(4) But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

.​

.​

(9) He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.​

And another sealed book:

Isaiah 29 ESV​

(11) And the vision of all this has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed. When men give it to one who can read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”​

Hi Sissy..Oh, I found another piece of the puzzle. How did John know it was seven seals....apparently by some scholars. if the scroll in question had multiple sealed compartments, strings dipped in waxed was attached to the outside to tell the person how many seals were held within the scroll. I have not verified this.

You ask about the Tittle Deed. John tells us the scroll was written on both sides. according to ancient Leverite laws, a scroll written on the outside (not usually done for the parchment, was very rough) with instructions for the person who found the scroll.

Accordingly, God told Jeremiah to go buy some land, even though Jeremiah was going to be in captivity for 70 years. (Babylonian Empire). You can find this in Jer 32:6-15. WHo ever found this scroll would read the outside of the scroll and if they could comply with the instructions on it, they would open it or get it to the right people...This way the inheritance of land was always in the hands of the rightful owner.

Sissy, I know this is long, forgive me... You will find this type of deeds used in the Book of Ruth. Like Boaz (the Kindsman redeemer), Jesus is also the Kindsman redeemer for the earth.,..This scroll in Rev 6 when opened will transfer the earth back to the Hands of Jesus away from the hand of Satan, who at this time owns the earth and air (not below the earth, Jesus has the keys for that after His resurrection)..

Does that make sense...Always look to Bible prophecy not only as prophecy fulfillment but Prophecy and Pattern. You will see that Jesus through the Leverite marriage and redeemption of scroll deeds written on both sides is a pattern all through the Bible.

Hope this helps.

Blade

 

[Sissy]

Hi Sissy..Oh, I found another piece of the puzzle. How did John know it was seven seals....apparently by some scholars. if the scroll in question had multiple sealed compartments, strings dipped in waxed was attached to the outside to tell the person how many seals were held within the scroll. I have not verified this.

You ask about the Tittle Deed. John tells us the scroll was written on both sides.
according to ancient Leverite laws, a scroll written on the outside (not usually done for the parchment, was very rough) with instructions for the person who found the scroll.

Accordingly, God told Jeremiah to go buy some land, even though Jeremiah was going to be in captivity for 70 years. (Babylonian Empire). You can find this in Jer 32:6-15. WHo ever found this scroll would read the outside of the scroll and if they could comply with the instructions on it, they would open it or get it to the right people...This way the inheritance of land was always in the hands of the rightful owner.

Sissy, I know this is long, forgive me... You will find this type of deeds used in the Book of Ruth. Like Boaz (the Kindsman redeemer), Jesus is also the Kindsman redeemer for the earth.,..This scroll in Rev 6 when opened will transfer the earth back to the Hands of Jesus away from the hand of Satan, who at this time owns the earth and air (not below the earth, Jesus has the keys for that after His resurrection)..

Does that make sense...Always look to Bible prophecy not only as prophecy fulfillment but Prophecy and Pattern. You will see that Jesus through the Leverite marriage and redeemption of scroll deeds written on both sides is a pattern all through the Bible.

Hope this helps.

Blade

Was just wondering, as I have never seen any documentation saying ancient land title deeds were written on both sides as the norm.
Would be good documentation to have if you ever run across any actual documentation other than tradition.

 

[Bladerunner]

Revelation 8 ESV​

(1) When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.​

Not a silence everywhere, but in heaven.

Rem, Sissy I told you about prophecy Pattern.. When Jesus was leading the attack on Jericho, they were to march around the city without making a sound until the seventh time. (Jos 6:10), Plausible,,,Maybe I am stretching things.... but we find that Rev 6:15 was preceded in Jos 10:16-17.

Patterns are all through....especially the Levirite Marriage/ Goel/ Kindsman Redeemer

Blade

The other place this word is used in NT is:

Acts 21 ESV​

(40) And when he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great hush, he addressed them in the Hebrew language, saying:​

This gives the impression that it was a demanded silence so that what was to be heard next would need to be heard without distraction.
Perhaps the silence in heaven was demanded by Christ so that what was heard next would have no distraction.

So what was heard next?
The prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8 ESV​

(3) And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne,​

(4) and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.​

View attachment 131​

Gives remembrance of:

Revelation 5 ESV​

(7) And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.​

(8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.​

What were the prayers?
Perhaps the following:

Revelation 6 ESV​

(10) They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

And the Trumpet judgements follow.