Is The Bible A Failure?

[Mr E]

So you, like a lot of scholars, don't think that while the Apostles were giving themselves to prayer and the ministering of the word of God it could entail writing the gospel.
But even leaving that aside, Luke who also wrote one of the gospels, was a companion of Paul.

His point still stands.... 'the scriptures' that Paul was referring to, were not the 66 books that we refer to as the Bible.

 

[Mr E]

Hey Phedup,
I was wondering if you consider 'rhema': the word of God as spoken. Some posters in the past had stated this- a very personal revelation independent of Scripture that is central to their lived experience.
Is there a Bile that resonates with your understanding that shapes and informs your belief?
In feminist post liberal understanding, some will say Mary Magdalen's writing had been excluded based on the fact she was a woman in the early Christian church.
The reason I ask is that mainstream and non-mainstream are clashing over theses questions. And it might play out on many forums or in the academic field. I just wanted to hear and discuss your views.
Blessings my friend, and I am so happy to chat to you again.

Wouldn't the rhema be the sayings of Christ-- the good news (gospel) he taught and others recorded? Isn't 'that' what, and why we consider the new testament writings to be 'inspired writings?'

Jesus was a reformer. He picked apart their understandings of the (existing) "scriptures" -which were the books of Moses, the prophets, the psalms and so on..... and the things he said, became the content or foundation for those new testament writers.

 

[Mr E]

I agree, @1M1S, is a straight shooter. The bottom line is that if we exclude God from having guided the writing, copying, canonization and translations of the bible, then who will do it right? Us? We will do what God couldn't or didn't? What? Is God up there yawning on His throne, thinking, oh yeah, I shoulda done that... Oh well, let them figure it out.

Or maybe God is saying.... (like He did when Jesus walked the earth) --Let's see how many of them are stuck in their own understanding, how many will listen, how many will turn, and how many will seek to kill and destroy the message and the messenger I sent?

 

[Legroom]

I need not say more. Your UB has corrupted the very meaning of sin and turned it into something it is not. I know who inspired this. God is gracious in granting us free-will even if it means to chose to believe a lie. There is nothing more that can be done on this point.


The mixture of error and truth in the UB is the autograph of the author.

You think everything is sin and consider yourself a piece of crap in Gods eyes. Maybe its you who bought into a murky definition of what sin is???

Since you keep disagreeing with a book you never read then just what does the UB say relative to your accusation.
89:10.2 (984.5) Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

89:10.3 (984.6) The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity.

89:10.5 (984.8) The confession of sin is a manful repudiation of disloyalty, but it in no wise mitigates the time-space consequences of such disloyalty. But confession—sincere recognition of the nature of sin—is essential to religious growth and spiritual progress.

89:10.6 (985.1) The forgiveness of sin by Deity is the renewal of loyalty relations following a period of the human consciousness of the lapse of such relations as the consequence of conscious rebellion. The forgiveness does not have to be sought, only received as the consciousness of re-establishment of loyalty relations between the creature and the Creator. And all the loyal sons of God are happy, service-loving, and ever-progressive in the Paradise ascent.

 

[Studyman]

I have a progressive revelation more than a religion, so to speak.

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá’í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá’í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá’u’lláh is the most recent (though not the last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]

This teaching is an interaction of simpler teachings and their implications. The basic concept relates closely to Bahá’í views on God's essential unity, and the nature of prophets, termed Manifestations of God. It also ties into Bahá’í views of the purpose and nature of religion, laws, belief, culture and history. Hence revelation is seen as progressive and continuous, and therefore never ceases.[3]

Bahá’u’lláh ( pronunciation) (November 12, 1817 – May 29, 1892), born Mírzá Ḥusayn-‘Alí Núrí in Iran was the founder of the Bahá’í Faith, which advocates universal peace, unity among all peoples, harmony between science and religion, and the essential oneness of God and His messengers through an ever unfolding process of divine revelation.

At the age of 27, Bahá’u’lláh became a follower of the Báb, a Persian merchant who began preaching that God would soon send a new prophet similar to Jesus or Muhammad. The Báb and thousands of followers were executed by the Iranian authorities for their beliefs. Bahá’u’lláh faced exile from his native Iran, and in Baghdad in 1863 claimed to be the expected prophet of whom the Báb foretold. Thus, Bahá’ís regard Bahá’u’lláh to be the most recent in a long line of Messengers of God, fulfilling of the eschatological expectations of Islam, Christianity, and other major religions.[1]

Bahá’u’lláh authored a significant number of tablets, prayers and books during his 40-year ministry covering a wide range of topics including the teachings and laws for Bahá’ís. The Bahá’í Archives in Haifa, Israel holds more than 15,000 tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, only a small percentage of which have been translated into English. Some of His primary works are the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, His Most Holy Book, the Kitáb-i-Íqán, His primary theological work, The Seven Valleys, His "greatest mystical composition" and The Hidden Words which is a collection of short utterances that contain basic spiritual truths.

Throughout His ministry Bahá’u’lláh was repeatedly imprisoned and exiled. Following His imprisonment in Persia in 1852 He subsequently choose exile in Baghdad, but was forced to move first to Constantinople, then Adrianople, and ultimately to the prison city of ‘Akká, (present-day Israel), where he spent his final 24 years of life. His burial place is a destination of pilgrimage for His followers, and the Bahá’í World Centre sits in nearby Haifa.

This explains a whole lot of your posts. Thanks for sharing.

But to answer your question. The bible did not exist. There were no translation, no canonization, and no new testament, so the question is moot,

In your progressive revelation, when Jesus said "Many will say to me in that day", what "day" is it that People meet Jesus face to face?

2 Tim. 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Are you preaching this has already taken place?? Even before the Bible existed?

However; these people tried to work their way to heaven. They were depending upon sight, that is seeing their own good works to recommend themselves to God. Jesus went on to give the reason why this failed. It was not because they did the works or that they did not do enough works. The single key to their salvation was in knowing Jesus Christ and they didn't. So sadly, Jesus said, depart from me. Focus on works as all or part of your salvation gets between you and knowing Jesus Christ. But if you seek first Jesus Christ the gate to God's Kingdom and Jesus Christ's righteousness, then all else will fall in place.

LOL, But wait a minute there GA. YOU JUST SAID the Scriptures didn't exist. Not the OT, nor the New Testament. How did these folks know the name of Jesus? How, or even why, would they be casting out devils in His Name, if the Holy Scriptures didn't even exist? They claimed to know Jesus, just as "many" who come in His Name. How can this be if the Scriptures were not even written before these men, in "THAT DAY", stood before the Risen Christ, making their case against a Judgment they most certainly saw?

You said' " It was not because they did the works or that they did not do enough works."

But the Jesus of the Bible says, in my view; "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

Iniquity + Greek "Anomia" means "illegality", "violation of Law", wickedness, Transgression of the Law, Not subject to Law, without law, Lawless, Transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

So again, there seems to be this big gulf between what you further as truth, and what the scriptures say, in my view.

It is more than obvious that these men knew the instructions from God, but were hearers only, and not doers as Jesus Himself said in the very next verse.

24 Therefore(Because of this) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Surely we can agree that these men heard Christ/God, but were not "doers" of the Word they heard, rather "Transgressors"..

You said; "It was not because they did the works or that they did not do enough works"

But Jesus Himself says HE doesn't know these who "Come in His Name" because they "WORK" Lawlessness.

Are you saying this meaning changed through time by the religious philosophy of "Progressive Revelation"?

Is this why we disagree so much, because I am not up to speed on the teaching of God "most relevant to modern society"?

Interesting and enlightening information. I would ask that you answer the Question I asked regarding what "DAY" you believe Jesus was Speaking to as "That Day". I'm sure I know what it meant when HE said it, but I'm interested in what you believe the meaning "progressed" to today.

 

[Studyman]

This is off-topic. You should join a psychology board where such posts are apropos.

You were making a judgement of sin against another. I was simply showing that you do exactly what you accuse others of doing. Something the Bible expressly teaches against. But also that there is a scientific name for this practice, or addiction.

There is hope for recovery if you would just acknowledge this addiction. Being a "Doer" of the Word, and not a hearer only, as Jesus Himself instructs, is the key in my view.

Matt. 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't cast the Beam out for you.

This Bible verse isn't the failure if a man believes enough to "Do" it. But those who "Work iniquity", even if they do everything in the Name of Jesus, HE says HE still doesn't know them.

It seemed relevant to the Thread at the time. I will take your advice into consideration though.

 

[Studyman]

His point still stands.... 'the scriptures' that Paul was referring to, were not the 66 books that we refer to as the Bible.

You are right I believe. Only the Torah and Prophets existed during Paul's Life. And HE taught the Gospel from them, actually teaching that the Gospel of Christ was found "within them".

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Law and Prophets)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

And again;

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And again;

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And again;

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (Both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And one more;

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It's no wonder that Jesus said HE didn't come to Destroy His Own Gospel. Why would HE?

 

[Grace Accepted]

You were making a judgment of sin against another.

Are you judging me now?

I was simply showing that you do exactly what you accuse others of doing. Something the Bible expressly teaches against. But also that there is a scientific name for this practice or addiction.

Why, yes, you are making a judgment of sin against another. That log is heavy on the eye, ain't it.

[/quote]There is hope for recovery if you would just acknowledge this addiction. Being a "Doer" of the Word, and not a hearer only, as Jesus Himself instructs, is the key in my view.[/quote]Even more judgement? Yes, even more.

Matt. 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't cast the Beam out for you.[/quote]Don't you find this so ironic. You spending this entire post doing exactly what you are condemning me for? I do, but not just you specifically, it is a common human trait. But the irony is so thick here.

This Bible verse isn't the failure if a man believes enough to "Do" it. But those who "Work iniquity", even if they do everything in the Name of Jesus, HE says HE still doesn't know them.

It seemed relevant to the Thread at the time. I will take your advice into consideration though.

You have just tacitly defended the UB and now you are saying the bible is not a failure. Well, then you must agree with my judgment that you have just so roundly condemned.

The followers of Jesus Christ will grow and grow as doers of His Words because they are in a saving relationship with him. Followers of Jesus do so because He has perfected them forever even while being made Holy. Followers of works will forever be stuck in their cloisters condemning others but never being free.

 

[Studyman]

Are you judging me now? Why, yes, you are making a judgment of sin against another. That log is heavy on the eye, ain't it.

There is hope for recovery if you would just acknowledge this addiction. Being a "Doer" of the Word, and not a hearer only, as Jesus Himself instructs, is the key in my view.[/quote]Even more judgement? Yes, even more.

Matt. 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't cast the Beam out for you.[/quote]Don't you find this so ironic. You spending this entire post doing exactly what you are condemning me for? I do, but not just you specifically, it is a common human trait. But the irony is so thick here.

You have just tacitly defended the UB and now you are saying the bible is not a failure. Well, then you must agree with my judgment that you have just so roundly condemned.

The followers of Jesus Christ will grow and grow as doers of His Words because they are in a saving relationship with him. Followers of Jesus do so because He has perfected them forever even while being made Holy. Followers of works will forever be stuck in their cloisters condemning others but never being free.
[/QUOTE]

LOL

 

[Grace Accepted]

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá’í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá’í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá’u’lláh is the most recent (though not the last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]

This teaching is an interaction of simpler teachings and their implications. The basic concept relates closely to Bahá’í views on God's essential unity, and the nature of prophets, termed Manifestations of God. It also ties into Bahá’í views of the purpose and nature of religion, laws, belief, culture and history. Hence revelation is seen as progressive and continuous, and therefore never ceases.[3]

Bahá’u’lláh ( pronunciation) (November 12, 1817 – May 29, 1892), born Mírzá Ḥusayn-‘Alí Núrí in Iran was the founder of the Bahá’í Faith, which advocates universal peace, unity among all peoples, harmony between science and religion, and the essential oneness of God and His messengers through an ever unfolding process of divine revelation.

At the age of 27, Bahá’u’lláh became a follower of the Báb, a Persian merchant who began preaching that God would soon send a new prophet similar to Jesus or Muhammad. The Báb and thousands of followers were executed by the Iranian authorities for their beliefs. Bahá’u’lláh faced exile from his native Iran, and in Baghdad in 1863 claimed to be the expected prophet of whom the Báb foretold. Thus, Bahá’ís regard Bahá’u’lláh to be the most recent in a long line of Messengers of God, fulfilling of the eschatological expectations of Islam, Christianity, and other major religions.[1]

Bahá’u’lláh authored a significant number of tablets, prayers and books during his 40-year ministry covering a wide range of topics including the teachings and laws for Bahá’ís. The Bahá’í Archives in Haifa, Israel holds more than 15,000 tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, only a small percentage of which have been translated into English. Some of His primary works are the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, His Most Holy Book, the Kitáb-i-Íqán, His primary theological work, The Seven Valleys, His "greatest mystical composition" and The Hidden Words which is a collection of short utterances that contain basic spiritual truths.

Throughout His ministry Bahá’u’lláh was repeatedly imprisoned and exiled. Following His imprisonment in Persia in 1852 He subsequently choose exile in Baghdad, but was forced to move first to Constantinople, then Adrianople, and ultimately to the prison city of ‘Akká, (present-day Israel), where he spent his final 24 years of life. His burial place is a destination of pilgrimage for His followers, and the Bahá’í World Centre sits in nearby Haifa.

This explains a whole lot of your posts. Thanks for sharing.

This is just a purposeful distortion. Sad, but expected.

In your progressive revelation, when Jesus said "Many will say to me in that day", what "day" is it that People meet Jesus face to face?

2 Tim. 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Are you preaching this has already taken place?? Even before the Bible existed?

No.

LOL, But wait a minute there GA. YOU JUST SAID the Scriptures didn't exist. Not the OT, nor the New Testament. How did these folks know the name of Jesus? How, or even why, would they be casting out devils in His Name, if the Holy Scriptures didn't even exist? They claimed to know Jesus, just as "many" who come in His Name. How can this be if the Scriptures were not even written before these men, in "THAT DAY", stood before the Risen Christ, making their case against a Judgment they most certainly saw?

You said' " It was not because they did the works or that they did not do enough works."

I refuse to believe that you are that ignorant, but I would agree that you are willing to purposefully obfuscate what other say. But I will play along. No, SM, I was referring, of course, to when Jesus was telling this to the people.

But the Jesus of the Bible says, in my view; "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

Iniquity + Greek "Anomia" means "illegality", "violation of Law", wickedness, Transgression of the Law, Not subject to Law, without law, Lawless, Transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

So again, there seems to be this big gulf between what you further as truth, and what the scriptures say, in my view.

So then, point out which of the things that they did were lawless and evil? Was it the prophesying in His Name? or The driving out of demons or perhaps performing many miracles?

It is more than obvious that these men knew the instructions from God, but were hearers only, and not doers as Jesus Himself said in the very next verse.

24 Therefore(Because of this) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Surely we can agree that these men heard Christ/God, but were not "doers" of the Word they heard, rather "Transgressors"..

Only by conjecture. What you fail to understand is how one can hear the word. You are sure that you do but so were the Pharisees. Take heed of Mark 4:11
He replied, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside everything is expressed in parables, 12so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.

You said; "It was not because they did the works or that they did not do enough works"

But Jesus Himself says HE doesn't know these who "Come in His Name" because they "WORK" Lawlessness.

You see how this works. A slight twist here and a tweak there and you have made the text say what you wanted but and ignored what it actually says. The reason is clear. "I never knew you." Their lawlessness was after the fact and not the cause of the fact.

Verses 24 and 26 are descriptive and not prescriptive. They reveal the condition of two kinds of people. Those who have been saved are known by their love, devotion, and obedience progressing or growing each day. You cannot achieve salvation by "hearing and doing" you become a hearer and doer by Grace through faith and that produces the fruit of obedience.

Are you saying this meaning changed through time by the religious philosophy of "Progressive Revelation"?

No, SM, We progressively understand the truths of the bible as we are taught by Christ. All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head.

Is this why we disagree so much, because I am not up to speed on the teaching of God "most relevant to modern society"?

It is because you are not up to speed with the saving grace of Jesus Christ which sets you free, perfects you forever while still being made Holy. You have not laid your burden down at the foot of the cross.

Interesting and enlightening information. I would ask that you answer the Question I asked regarding what "DAY" you believe Jesus was Speaking to as "That Day". I'm sure I know what it meant when HE said it, but I'm interested in what you believe the meaning "progressed" to today.

You are more ignorant of what I believe and less enlightened. No, those who are lost will not have even understood the bible let alone believed it.

 

[Grace Accepted]

There is hope for recovery if you would just acknowledge this addiction. Being a "Doer" of the Word, and not a hearer only, as Jesus Himself instructs, is the key in my view.

Even more judgment? Yes, even more.

Matt. 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Notice Jesus doesn't cast the Beam out for you.

Don't you find this so ironic. You spending this entire post doing exactly what you are condemning me for? I do, but not just you specifically, it is a common human trait. But the irony is so thick here.

You have just tacitly defended the UB and now you are saying the bible is not a failure. Well, then you must agree with my judgment that you have just so roundly condemned.

The followers of Jesus Christ will grow and grow as doers of His Words because they are in a saving relationship with him. Followers of Jesus do so because He has perfected them forever even while being made Holy. Followers of works will forever be stuck in their cloisters condemning others but never being free.

LOL

Fixed it up a bit.

 

[Mr E]

You are right I believe. Only the Torah and Prophets existed during Paul's Life. And HE taught the Gospel from them, actually teaching that the Gospel of Christ was found "within them".

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (Law and Prophets)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

And again;

2 Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And again;

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And again;

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (Both) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And one more;

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It's no wonder that Jesus said HE didn't come to Destroy His Own Gospel. Why would HE?

This is what it means where it says he came for the lost sheep of Israel only. He came to set the record straight, but his own denied him.