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Is The Bible A Failure?

OG = Original basically.

But I would only point out that he was later tempted as well, internally, to disobey and avoid the cross. He never contemplated seriously doing it, but the temptation to avoid all that suffering was there, hence the "cup would pass from me" thing. I don't see how this is any different from an internal motivation.

Personally, I don't see any evidence that his condition or trials while on Earth were any different than our own, and that's kind of the point of the whole thing.
You may be right. I certainly can't get inside His head. I will insert a couple other potentials, for the sake of "speculation" and conversation, not to dispute what you say.

To want to avoid the pain and suffering Jesus was about to endure on the cross is natural, but not sinful. I don't see Him being tempted to disobey but simply pleading with the Father to not ask Him to do it. But again---not in His head.

I think the things that tempt us are so internal and as constantly present in our thoughts and actions as breathing, (as scripture says, they actually begin as a temptation in our minds, and it is there that we contemplate and debate whatever it is until we finally do it,) that we cannot imagine not being that way, or anyone else not being that way. Even though the things that tempt us have their first appearance externally, (the eye beholds), it is the interactions and desires and even imaginations---our thoughts---that cause it to become full blown. Even if we aren't actually committing a sin, our thoughts and desires are of a sinful nature. Jesus didn't have that problem as it wasn't a part of His nature. IMO when we are told that Jesus was like us in every way and was tempted as we are, that does not include a sinful nature, only one that was capable of sin, just as Adam was. It simply means He was truly human. God did not create us with a sinful nature, only with one capable of sin.
 
...when we are told that Jesus was like us in every way and was tempted as we are, that does not include a sinful nature, only one that was capable of sin, just as Adam was. It simply means He was truly human.
Exactly.
 
No worries. It was refreshing to have someone actually thinking into the question, as opposed to just blowing it off.

In my view Matthew 7 is a perfect chapter to examine in an attempt to determine the reasons for all the division in the religions of this world. Matt. 7 is a devastating chapter to the religions of this world. If a man pauses to take the time to really "SEEK" the understanding, not through the prism of Calvin or Constantine, or any religious philosopher of this world, but through the prism of Every Word of God/Jesus, it is most enlightening and explains why so many divisions exist.

The chapter itself is a huge warning regarding against complacency and deceivers, and the importance of "choosing" correctly. In my view.

I don't mean to carry on, but I would be interested in your take of the question I asked. I have another I would also ask, not specifically for you, but for anyone.

Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

When Jesus says "Enter Ye in", what do you think HE is speaking to here? Enter into where? And is it the same place the "Many" are attempting to "Enter in"?

I look forward to your take.


The elephant exists just as God exists. Both are real things that have set attributes. The monks are touching a real elephant just as the denominations/schools of thought are contemplating a real God. The elephants attributes are not murky or relative or shifting, but their ability to perceive accurately something so great is, and is limited, just as our ability to perceive an infinite God in our short little human lives with narrow perspective is.

For this reason, I do believe consulting others, both in the present and far in the distant past, is profitable, and do not believe personally consulting scripture in a vacuum is a realistic way FOR ME to attain truth.

Some others say God talks to them directly, as for this, I have not been bestowed such a gift. At most it is what I could describe as soft guidance. Perhaps this means I am an unworthy heretic (as I have heard all before), bust such as it is, this is my opinion on the question of different doctrines from one Bible.
 
You may be right. I certainly can't get inside His head. I will insert a couple other potentials, for the sake of "speculation" and conversation, not to dispute what you say.

To want to avoid the pain and suffering Jesus was about to endure on the cross is natural, but not sinful. I don't see Him being tempted to disobey but simply pleading with the Father to not ask Him to do it. But again---not in His head.

I think the things that tempt us are so internal and as constantly present in our thoughts and actions as breathing, (as scripture says, they actually begin as a temptation in our minds, and it is there that we contemplate and debate whatever it is until we finally do it,) that we cannot imagine not being that way, or anyone else not being that way. Even though the things that tempt us have their first appearance externally, (the eye beholds), it is the interactions and desires and even imaginations---our thoughts---that cause it to become full blown. Even if we aren't actually committing a sin, our thoughts and desires are of a sinful nature. Jesus didn't have that problem as it wasn't a part of His nature. IMO when we are told that Jesus was like us in every way and was tempted as we are, that does not include a sinful nature, only one that was capable of sin, just as Adam was. It simply means He was truly human. God did not create us with a sinful nature, only with one capable of sin.

I just view it as, he obviously was tempted to deviate from the will of his Father, because he expressed as much. Maybe it's different in the Greek, but in English, it's pretty clear he has some inkling to avoid the coming pain/suffering.

Knew he had to get the cross but asked politely if just maybe he could like... not do that? Never did it, asked in a super respectful way, but the desire to avoid the will was there in those words, in the English. And what is sin but deviation from the will?

Tempted, never acted upon is the way I see it. Just like us, but made the right call where many wouldn't have.

I think whatever sin hermeneutic you have has to work around that, if it doesn't, either fool around and find a loophole in the Greek (standard solution for most lol) or got to change it. Text says what it says.
 
It is so weird talking to you people. You are trapped inside of your own paradigm.

Problem 1

In a nut shell you are telling me that the bible is the very word of God because the bible said so. And you fail to see the problem with that?

I will help. I'm a penguin. It is true because I said so. Is it true that I am a penguin? If not why is my circular logic false and yours it true?

Problem 2

Paul did not write 2 Tim. The majority of scholars sinse the early 1800's believe it was written after Paul's death. There are many good reasons why the majority of scholarship reached this conclusion that you will dismiss because it upsets your paradigm. But the nail in Paul's authorship here is that it was not included in the cannon of the heretic Marcion.

Problem 3

Your translation of 2 Tim 3:16 is a Christian lie.

Xenn, many times, tried to tell you peeps this.


The proper translation is something like "All inspired scripture is good for blah blah blah. The verbs and conjuctions and word order were changed to deliberatly change the meaning of the actual words written. Well intentioned Christians is just a spin doctors way of saying liar.-See the adultures woman.

Problem 4

When this was written, there was no New Testament. There were however, a crazy amount of Gospels and letters attributed to people that did exist at the time. Something like 68 gospels and more than that for epistles-those numbers are not exact. If Paul had written it, then scripture would be limited to Jewish scripture because there was no other scripture for the jews that was sacred at that time. The didache is the earliest known work of Christian teachings, it used to be in the New Testament. It is no longer in because your religion looks nothing like the original christian religion.

Problem 5

There is nothing in 2 Tim to indicate that the writer believed the letter he was writing was to be considered scripture. You know, like "all scripture, including this that I am writing to you dear timothy, is inspired...." Anyone can say anything.



As to Psa12: 6-7 you suffer the same problem that it is simply a man telling you this, not God. And like Paul, David is a murderer with the added bonus of being an adullteror and causing another to commit adultry. At Judgement day, we will see if Uriah will accuse David of fornicating with his wife Bathsheba and having him murdered or will Uriah just say, "ah, it's ok."

Matthew 5:25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court[k] with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

I mean seriosly, Moses only used his own might in getting the water and God punished him crazy hard. People live like the great and terrible day of the Lord won't effect them. Oh wait, that is your religion.

So ya, David can say whatever he wants to say, and he will answer for it all, just like we will.
thanks for your thoughts but they change not mine

Blade
 
Blade, his point was that those verses, nor any others say that “the Bible” is God’s word. The Bible isn’t even a book per se, it’s a collection of books and there were a group of men sitting around a table who decided for you what would, and what would not- be included in that collection.
thanks, missed that....

Blade
 
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