Is The Bible A Failure?

[Bladerunner]

The Holy Spirit working through him. Paul is a willful 'prisoner in Christ', and his spirit conforms to the work of the Holy Spirit producing God's Word. Often the Holy Spirit can be neglected in this, and it is likely related to some who read the Bible as, any other text.
I think I understand Blade.

Yes, you have laid it out far more elegantly than I did. and Yes, I know you understand even before I realized you are the Forum Chaplain! Thank you



Blade

 

[Studyman]

This is just a purposeful distortion. Sad, but expected.

It's not a purposeful distortion at all GA. You defined your religion, I just posted its origin. You aren't the first "minister of Righteousness" to promote a version of this teaching. Calvin, Hodge, even Luther was also influenced by this religious philosophy.

Perhaps the name you quoted, and similar religious beliefs are just a coincidence. I'm OK with that.

No.

I refuse to believe that you are that ignorant, but I would agree that you are willing to purposefully obfuscate what other say. But I will play along. No, SM, I was referring, of course, to when Jesus was telling this to the people.

I guess I never really thought Jesus was just speaking about folks HE would encounter in the next few days before HE was Murdered. I mean, to believe when Jesus says "Many" will say to me in "That Day", that He is speaking about "MANY" people who are doing wonderful works in His Name, Casting out devils in HIS name, Prophesying in HIS name, before HE was murdered and ascended?? Before Paul, Before Pentecost? Before His Prophesied Return? I'm not sure how you can peddle such a doctrine with a straight face. You must think I am that ignorant, that I fall for such a windy.

But the sad part, is that you will defend this doctrine, because you actually believe it. That is a force i want nothing to do with.

So then, point out which of the things that they did were lawless and evil? Was it the prophesying in His Name? or The driving out of demons or perhaps performing many miracles?

Well, it says these men "said" that were casting out devils in Jesus Name, perhaps even believing they were, and maybe even believing they were doing miracles in His name as well? They were certainly convinced by someone they were all set, when they were not. Not by Jesus anyway. Perhaps the "other voice in the garden" convinced them. But it seems to me that Jesus would HAVE to know a man, before he could cast out Devils in His Name.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on how they could be casting out devils in Jesus Name, when Jesus didn't even know them?

Or maybe they "Prophesied in Christ's Name", but rejected God's Commandments Jesus said to keep? That would make them Lawless. I am interested to see how you explain your belief that these men were doing Miracles in Jesus Name, when HE didn't even know them.

Only by conjecture. What you fail to understand is how one can hear the word. You are sure that you do but so were the Pharisees. Take heed of Mark 4:11
He replied, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside everything is expressed in parables, 12so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.

So then, when Jesus says those who hear and are "doers" of His Words are wise, but those who hear, but are "NOT DOERS" of His Words are unwise, you preach this is only conjecture? In your progressive revelation, were the Pharisees "Doers" of Jesus Word's? Or hearers only? Would your progressive revelation tell you they were wise? Or unwise?

You see how this works. A slight twist here and a tweak there and you have made the text say what you wanted but and ignored what it actually says. The reason is clear. "I never knew you." Their lawlessness was after the fact and not the cause of the fact.

I twisted nothing.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

OK, so you are Preaching that Jesus rejected them. But not because they "worked iniquity", even though HE literally says "You who work lawlessness".

He rejected them because they were preaching in His Name? He rejected them because they claimed to be casting out devils in His Name. But not because they claimed to know Jesus, but by their works, they denied Him.

This is enough for me GA. These exercises are good for me and they keep me appraised of the latest "Progressive revelations". But i can't tell anymore if you are just spoofing me, or you really believe this stuff you are peddling.

 

[Studyman]

Perhaps you both should reconsider.

2 Peter 3 ESV
(15) And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
(16) as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

I'm not sure how this contradicts my post.

 

[L.B.]

Yes, you have laid it out far more elegantly than I did. and Yes, I know you understand even before I realized you are the Forum Chaplain! Thank you



Blade

We found the stance and how to frame it together, encouragers we both!
I am not an expert by any means... Chaplain is more pastoral care for me... a good ear and word in time of need, and in times of encouragement...
I learn with every breath, and my peers help in that (my brothers and sisters). Hey, I have learned from you Blade... massive blessings in that, you encourage a lot.
If there is a ministry of 'speaking good words to others'- that is me...
You my friend are a encourager and that has always shown in your posts... a noble calling

 

[Mark Schmidt]

I love this thread and this is an interesting and very important question that needs to be answered. Not because of those of us who already or follow the words and intent, but because for the first time in many many decades more do not believe than believe here in the United States and it is getting as bad around the work. More of the youth have turned away from religion altogether.

If we can find an answer to this we are part of the way to fixing what has become a fractured belief in Christianity.

 

[L.B.]

I love this thread and this is an interesting and very important question that needs to be answered. Not because of those of us who already or follow the words and intent, but because for the first time in many many decades more do not believe than believe here in the United States and it is getting as bad around the work. More of the youth have turned away from religion altogether.

If we can find an answer to this we are part of the way to fixing what has become a fractured belief in Christianity.

Thank you brother... I have loved this thread too... and healing the schisms between us... and getting it right here can move us for preparedness in the Great Commission: sharing the Gospel to a world that needs it and to renew vigor in the case for Christianity.

 

[Bladerunner]

We found the stance and how to frame it together, encouragers we both!
I am not an expert by any means... Chaplain is more pastoral care for me... a good ear and word in time of need, and in times of encouragement...
I learn with every breath, and my peers help in that (my brothers and sisters). Hey, I have learned from you Blade... massive blessings in that, you encourage a lot.
If there is a ministry of 'speaking good words to others'- that is me...
You my friend are a encourager and that has always shown in your posts... a noble calling

thank you for the kind words.

Blade

 

[L.B.]

thank you for the kind words.

Blade

Et tu, mon frère... sorry I have not practiced French in a long time and it just seemed fit. You too my brother.

 

[Grace Accepted]

It's not a purposeful distortion at all GA. You defined your religion, I just posted its origin. You aren't the first "minister of Righteousness" to promote a version of this teaching. Calvin, Hodge, even Luther was also influenced by this religious philosophy.

You never listen. You create your strawmen and never ever find the truth about the people you disagree with. This is sad. No, SM, this is not my religious philosophy, that is your word that you used to make your strawman. My progressive revelation is from God and Jesus described it in Mark 4:26-29 Jesus also said, “The kingdom of God is like a man who scatters seed on the ground. Night and day he sleeps and wakes, and the seed sprouts and grows, though he knows not how. All by itself, the earth produces a crop—first the stalk, then the head, then grain that ripens within. And as soon as the grain is ripe, he swings the sickle, because the harvest has come.

I belong to the Kingdom of God by the Grace of God through the body of Jesus by faith. I am one of the seeds scattered on the ground and I died in that soil and am now sprouting and growing into the full stature of Jesus Christ. In other words, as I grow I progress in knowledge of the scriptures and the will of God. You put an entirely erroneous definition in it and proudly stood back to look at another strawman you'd created. But what you actually created was just another windmill to tilt at.

I guess I never really thought Jesus was just speaking about folks HE would encounter in the next few days before HE was Murdered. I mean, to believe when Jesus says "Many" will say to me in "That Day", that He is speaking about "MANY" people who are doing wonderful works in His Name, Casting out devils in HIS name, Prophesying in HIS name, before HE was murdered and ascended?? Before Paul, Before Pentecost? Before His Prophesied Return? I'm not sure how you can peddle such a doctrine with a straight face. You must think I am that ignorant, that I fall for such a windy.

Try to access your rational self for a minute. You are fighting another strawman. You have veered off into a ditch that you dug yourself. You have turned this discussion into something from your imagination and created a false doctrine to go with your strawman. Let us stick to the topic.

But the sad part, is that you will defend this doctrine, because you actually believe it. That is a force i want nothing to do with.

SM, come back to reality. I have no clue as to what doctrine you are speaking of. Hello, earth to SM, come back. We are discussing why there are so many different interpretations of the bible when there should be unity.

Well, it says these men "said" that were casting out devils in Jesus Name, perhaps even believing they were, and maybe even believing they were doing miracles in His name as well? They were certainly convinced by someone they were all set, when they were not. Not by Jesus anyway. Perhaps the "other voice in the garden" convinced them. But it seems to me that Jesus would HAVE to know a man, before he could cast out Devils in His Name.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on how they could be casting out devils in Jesus Name, when Jesus didn't even know them?

I guess we will have to ask Jesus. He is the one who gave the narrative. They made the claim and Jesus did not contradict them.

Or maybe they "Prophesied in Christ's Name", but rejected God's Commandments Jesus said to keep? That would make them Lawless. I am interested to see how you explain your belief that these men were doing Miracles in Jesus Name, when HE didn't even know them.

You need some rails to keep you on the right track. I suppose I should make it a bit simpler so you won't keep missing my point. The point is that nothing that they said they did would have made them lawless so we must look for a different explanation as to why Jesus said they were evil-doers.

So then, when Jesus says those who hear and are "doers" of His Words are wise, but those who hear, but are "NOT DOERS" of His Words are unwise, you preach this is only conjecture? In your progressive revelation, were the Pharisees "Doers" of Jesus Word's? Or hearers only? Would your progressive revelation tell you they were wise? Or unwise?

What we have here is a failure to communicate. You do not understand very much of what I say. Let's see, how can I simplify this?
You wrote: Surely we can agree that these men heard Christ/God, but were not "doers" of the Word they heard, rather "Transgressors".
I replied: Only by conjecture.

Which happens to be true. There is no record of Christ blaming these people for this sin. In fact, Jesus never says what their evil deeds were. The only thing we can be sure of is that they were evil because they did not know Jesus Christ. The takeaway from all of this is that if you do not know Jesus, you are an evildoer. If you do know him, you are made perfect forever.

I twisted nothing.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

OK, so you are Preaching that Jesus rejected them. But not because they "worked iniquity", even though HE literally says "You who work lawlessness".

Yes, and you will notice that it does not say, ...depart from me BECAUSE you work inequity. They work inequity because they never knew Him. They are the ones that love darkness more than light. John 17:3 makes this clear, eternal life is in knowing Him. Now, this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Knowing and being known of God is eternal life.

He rejected them because they were preaching in His Name? He rejected them because they claimed to be casting out devils in His Name. But not because they claimed to know Jesus, but by their works, they denied Him.

It just doesn't say that no matter how hard you may try to make it say that. He never knew them. If he had, they would not be workers of iniquity. It is a relationship with Jesus that saves us and empowers us to do the works of God.

This is enough for me GA. These exercises are good for me and they keep me appraised of the latest "Progressive revelations". But i can't tell anymore if you are just spoofing me, or you really believe this stuff you are peddling.

You don't even know what I believe, you only know what you think I believe. You do not argue with me. You argue with your strawmen.

 

[Grace Accepted]

Corroboration is nothing after 2000 years of editorial opportunities by the monks copying this stuff to make all the edges line up nicely, we all know that.

Plenty of pagan or alternative religions with corroborated accounts.

It is not proof, and it comes of as disingenuous and eye-roll educing when we use it as such. Don't be insecure in faith. The evidence is in the universal truth of the teaching and the words, not in the quantity of ancient testimony. Framing it like this makes us seem dumb and turns people off.

You completely missed the point, alas.

 

[L.B.]

You completely missed the point, alas.

Hi GA,
Would it help to define 1st hand (and their successive generations) testimonies and accounts collated by the Gospel/NT writers, Scriptures capturing oral culture, and the writers subject to the Holy Spirit: as primary agency and not self agency of the writer?
I got your point. Blade and I reflected on the Holy Spirit and Paul allowing himself to be Its instrument in NT epistles.

 

[Grace Accepted]

And, sinse edit timer ran out.

Acts 9:7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless because they heard the voice but saw no one. This is not Paul's account.
vs
Acts 22:9 Now those who were with me saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to me. This one is as reported by someone else.

Acts 26:14 Paul's account vs Acts 9:7 This is NOT Paul's account. If you wish I will make a separate post that explains how these accounts given by two different people are not contradictory.

Acts 26:16-18 vs Acts 22:10 There are no discrepancies between these accounts.

Acts 22:10 -Paul claims God told him to go to Damascus. But Paul went to Arabia instead. Verse 10 does not say He went to Arabia instead.
[/QUOTE]
Two of your instances didn't qualify since they were given by two different people. The remaining two had no discrepancies and there is no evidence that Paul went to Arabia instead of Damascus. So I don't see your point in this exercise.