What Are You Trusting In?

[Arial]

You were not "given" your Reformed position. You heard it and decided it was true.

You know Shroom you might need to learn what your limitations are when it comes to determining what took place in another's life and experience. You have no idea what the situation was in my heart and mind, no idea of how things unfolded, no idea of the nourishment and work of the Holy Spirit in my life during all this, no idea of the resonance of what I was seeing and learning and my communion with God at the time, nothing at all on which to make this statement other than you don't think it is true, you don't like it, you don't want it to be so, and your own arrogance at thinking your way or the highway, that you can never be wrong, that you know more than I do about my life. You standing in the place of the Holy Spirit when you don't even believe there is such a One.

In all the time I have been engaging with you on the forum, you have yet to put forth any legitimate support for anything you say, and you are so blinded by yourself, and the brainwashing of your chosen heretics, that you actually think you are, and think that they do. You put forth what you think is your support (the few scriptures that your leaders tell you to use) and when it is shown that there is an entirely different but legitimate way of viewing those scriptures, if one takes into consideration the other doctrines that you deny because your leaders have bamboozled you with their fast talk, and you have no weapon of critical thinking to view it with, (God's sovereignty and the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit) you have absolutely no way of refuting the opposition's position with a thought out and thought through rebuttal. So, you simply repeat your scriptures, which is no rebuttal at all.

Do not presume to tell me what I did or why I did it. Or what God does or did in and for me.

 

[Arial]

That's because that you refuse to believe that God gave people free will. You are hobbled by your chosen theology.

One reason I don't believe people have freewill is because there is no such thing. Another reason would be that the Bible never says that we have it, and the apostles never, not once, have that discussion with anyone. As much discussion on it that takes place on the forum should be some indication that it would have been very, very important that the apostles to also have that discussion with believers, so the matter would be settled. They did however have discussions on what man's responsibilities to God are as His children, and they had discussions on our bondage (including ye ole will) to sin, which is enmity against God, and discussions on that enmity and our unwillingness to surrender our all, desires that move the ole will included, to God. And why that bondage keeps us from ever having the will (desire) to do so, other than in some ways and sometimes, when it is to our benefit or when we need Him to do something for us.

You are hobbled by your belief in something that doesn't exist but sounds great to those sinful desires for autonomy. That desire for autonomy in itself is as sinful as it was when Adam and Eve gave in to it and plummeted us all into the condition, we are in.

 

[Sissy]

Almost everything that I say is backed by scripture.

Anyone with any stance can say that, so just saying it is doing nothing but taking up space and does nothing towards the actual argument.
It's just filler.

People think that what I say is personal because they are offended by the truth

More filler, as anyone can say that no matter what their stance is.

As long as there are people on this Forum that reject Christ and his Gospel and try to subvert it with their false religions, there will not be good fellowship.

More filler that does nothing to argue the points of their stance.

Patrick said that If I joined his Forum, I could refute Calvinism. So, I joined.

You can, by arguing their points systematically instead of using a bunch of opinion.

I will try to use more scripture and less opinion.

Less opinion would be great!
Many will post scripture to refute your stance, so more scripture is not necessarily the answer.
You must explain why your interpretation of what scripture means is more probable than theirs.

Calvinism is no more satanic than your stance.
Both are using scripture, and both are working through scripture in a way they believe it's interpretation could be taken.
It has been done that way for centuries by many scribes, scholars, and individuals.
They do that because they CARE about what the truth of scripture is, and realize that some of their points may need adjustment in the future when more knowledge is available to them.
They sit down at the round table and discuss all the possibilities, and NO ONE at the table should DEMAND that only their view is allowed to be discussed as an acceptable possibility because none of us have perfect knowledge.

Some things that seemed reasonable at the time were later shown to be incorrect by the discoveries of ancient writings that gave further insight into the terminology used in scripture and what those terminologies meant to those living in the culture of the time it was written.
And with that further information, points can be altered and no one should be against further enlightenment.


As the old saying goes ......
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him. (Proverbs 18:17)

 

[robert pate]

You were not "given" your Reformed position. You heard it and decided it was true.

"There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 16:25.

 

[meshak]

Why not?

They made it that way.

You cannot put any mod on ignor.

And some abuse their authority.

 

[Arial]

Patrick said that If I joined his Forum, I could refute Calvinism. So, I joined. I will try to use more scripture and less opinion.

Then refute it. So far all you have done is given your opinion of it, and everything you said about it was untrue. When I refuted that, you simply ignore what I say instead of presenting any sort of valid rebuttal to what I say, continue telling the lies you tell about it. That is not refuting Calvinism. Learn how to think and articulate.

 

[Arial]

Our autonomy. Our ability to think, reason, form opinions, beliefs. It's part of the image of God we were created in.

Being able to think, reason, form opinions and beliefs is not the definition of autonomy. Autonomy: freedom from external control or influence; independence. And being made in the image of God means we are similar to Him in some ways, but at no point exactly the same as. So you see, if we believe the scriptures, our will is not autonomous. And it is not free from external control. (James 1:13-15) We see, we want, we do. he doing part is the will, but it is acted upon first. Not only is our will in bondage to our own desires, but we, will included, are under the governance of God as the One who created us. The fact that God gave us a will, otherwise we would be standing eternally still, and He allows us to use it in response to whatever and in what way, we want, does not mean it is free. And scripture tells us plainly that our desires are at enmity with God. (Romans 8:7) We may be willing to seek God sometimes when it is advantageous to us in some ways, but that is not actually seeking Him. We are seeking HIm to meet our desires or we need something from Him. ANd then we walk away, as our sinful desires are more to our liking.

We mostly live our lives in our minds.

That in no way answers the question. You act as though the will is a free floating part of our anatomy. Where is it?

Of what?

Independently would be without dependance on anything.

It's all through the Bible. I gave you several verses already.

You gave me verses that you use to be the Bible saying we have free will. I showed you, several times, that they were showing and saying no such thing. You completely have to add free will to them in order for it to be there. And you can't even acknowledge that.

Yes. But is does not say that a person cannot decide to believe the gospel.

Yes it does. Roman 8:7 is one place.

Primarily our sin nature, which we inherited from Adam.

Our sins are born of our desires, and our desires move us to action (will.) But that is because we have a sin nature.

 

[Arial]

They made it that way.

You cannot put any mod on ignor.

And some abuse their authority.

That will not work if the mod is doing the same thing as Arial is doing.

I cannot put her on ignore.

I am not a mod.

 

[Sissy]

every exchange I have had on the subject with him end up in me having no faith, trusting in predestination and not Jesus. condemned to hell, worshiping a dead man etc.

And you make the freewill choice to keep stepping into it anyway when you already know the chances are very high it will have the same result.
It takes two to tango.

Is it ok if I call him stupid?

Stupid is to repeat doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

And if he were speaking to you this way, what would you do? Giving good advice but seldom being able to follow it applies to all our wretched selves, unfortunately.

Scripture says you can walk away and wipe the dust from your feet.

On top of that, though Pate is allowed to present his POV and his doctrine, by telling blatant lies about mine,

Filler.
Anyone can say that about what others say about their POV.

if I ignore him for the sake of not having to face his abuse, it leaves my theology and faith undefended,

It doesn't leave it undefended any more than it left the apostles theology and faith undefended when they had the good common sense to walk away and wipe the dust from their feet.

while he slanders mine but never actually, to a critical thinker, defends his. He merely states why he opposes Calvinism and uses ignorance and lies to do it. And when I do his work for him, that of thinking through his position with logic to reach its natural conclusion, which turns out to be an atrocity in fact; and when I present my position, thinking through it to its natural and logical conclusion (doing both his work for him as well as mine), and finding in it a glorious and mighty God, whether or not someone believes it, there is no rebuttal to either. Merely more insults and lies piled on.

This entire post is filler of your opinion.

So, I guess I will just put up with it, and try my best to not reply in kind and sink to the gutter where he dwells (oops), even though, as rules seem to have been relaxed, I will be quite frank and blunt.

Or ..... you could use common sense and use your efforts with folks that fit your criteria.
You could have peace here if you do.
You have already used the word "never" when criticizing Robert's criteria and his way of communicating his POV, so why expect a different result?

Most all of the bickering in any thread is a two-way street.
In other words, the fault does not lie with Robert's behavior alone.


And that's my filler opinion, of which is all worthless for the actual topic of this thread, as all opinions are.

 

[meshak]

I am not a mod.

I did not say you are.

I was talking about Sissy.

 

[robert pate]

Then refute it. So far all you have done is given your opinion of it, and everything you said about it was untrue. When I refuted that, you simply ignore what I say instead of presenting any sort of valid rebuttal to what I say, continue telling the lies you tell about it. That is not refuting Calvinism. Learn how to think and articulate.

God does not create mindless robots. There is no glory for God if we are just a bunch of mindless robots that cannot make choices. Everyday people are making decisions that are not God's will and are rebelling against him. Rebellion against God is proof that man has a free will. The angels in heaven have a free will. There was war in heaven and one third of the angels were cast out, Revelation 12:7. "Chose this day whom you will serve" Joshua, 24:15.

 

[Arial]

God does not create mindless robots. There is no glory for God if we are just a bunch of mindless robots that cannot make choices. Everyday people are making decisions that are not God's will and are rebelling against him. Rebellion against God is proof that man has a free will. The angels in heaven have a free will. There was war in heaven and one third of the angels were cast out, Revelation 12:7. "Chose this day whom you will serve" Joshua, 24:15.

Who said God created mindless robots? You put that out there as if it is supposed to mean something and as though it refutes Calvinism. But there is nothing about mindless robots in Calvinism. Only someone with no capacity to reason through things before they say them would say such a thing. Neither does Calvinism say that man has no will or that he does not freely make choice, or that nine times out of ten, they are a rebellion against God. So that one goes out the window too. And that does not make the will free. It is not its own independent free floating entity. It never moves a person in any direction without being worked upon itself. And it always moves the person in the way they most want to go---according the their own strongest desires. And though we have the faculties that would allow us to choose God, the Bible tells us without apology that we won't. simply because we don't want to. ( Romans 8:5-7; 1 Cor 2:14-16; Romans 3:10-11) We were all dead in trespasses and sins and had to be made alive. (Eph 2:1-5) It is God who makes us alive in Christ. There is nothing in there even remotely referring to man choosing to be made alive.

We may have the appearance of wanting God or choosing Christ but the "heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." We only want something from Him, not Him, and until we are born of the Spirit in Christ, we will always prefer and fall back on, our own desires.