True non-trins:

[ICHTHUS]

Agreed! Good post...

Before, on earth Yahshua shared in his Father's divine nature along with his own human nature from birth. He grew up into the divine nature of his Father, as we on the other hand as believers began to grow into this same divine nature since being saved.

And today, Jesus is immortal and given the divine nature of his Father and has shed his human nature since his resurrection. He is now as divine as the angels. And the source of all divinity of the so-called Godhead is the Father, the one true God and YHWH.

complete unbiblical nonsense! Jesus Christ is YHWH, Almighty God!

 

[ICHTHUS]

This thread became a debate on the trinity doctrine.

Please give respect to the OP.

Because the Trinity is 100% Biblically TRUE! Anything else is demonic heresy!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings meshak,

This thread became a debate on the trinity doctrine.

Perhaps we have strayed from your original purpose in starting this thread. We started speaking about the Trinity and non-trin because it was in the title of your thread, and for some reason you advertise the Trinity in nearly every one of your threads and posts. Anyway, Arial seems to be finished, and ICHTHUS is almost finished but locked into "Jesus is YHWH" and "the Trinity is 100% Biblically TRUE! Anything else is demonic heresy!", and I am finished discussing Unitarianism and the Trinity, as far as this thread is concerned. But you want us to get back to your OP, and consider each one of your statements:

There is some who claim to be non-trin yet they adopt many of trin's teachings such as:
"I am saved"
"faithfulness to Jesus is not a requirement for salvation"
"pro-military for Christians".
"They observe Christmas".
Those are the major characteristics of online non-trins.

meshak: "There is some who claim to be non-trin yet they adopt many of trin's teachings":
You seem to divide the "Christian" world into "trins" and "non-trins" and this seems to reflect your obsession in arguing against the Trinity, but you now object to a few non-trins, including myself, in this thread, to counter the wrong teaching of the Trinity. You used to send me private messages to stir me up to argue against the Trinity. If anything you advertise the Trinity more than other member on this forum.
meshak: " "I am saved" ":
I am not sure what you understand concerning this. I believe in salvation when we affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and are thus motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Christ by means of water baptism Acts 8:5-6,12 and thereafter live the crucified and resurrected life Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:1-8. I do not endorse OSAS.
meshak: " "faithfulness to Jesus is not a requirement for salvation" ":
If a person directly states this then they are wrong, but I suspect some that say this, believe some form of Dispensationalism, and they divide the believers into two groups. For some reason you also seem to reject the preaching and teaching of the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. Both you and they may have wrong perspectives on this item if we include Paul in the conversation.
meshak: " "pro-military for Christians" "
I agree with you to a certain extent here, but I am not a pacifist. God uses war to accomplish His purpose.
meshak: " "They observe Christmas" "
I do not observe Christmas, but tolerate some who do have a time of family gathering, and even decorating a tree and exchanging gifts. Most that I would tolerate do not believe that Jesus was born in mid-winter, but they may consider the birth of Jesus important.
meshak: "Those are the major characteristics of online non-trins."
I was not conscious that these are the major characteristics of those who are Unitarians on this forum. What is your definition of a True non-trin, those that agree with all of your doctrines, including your wrong ones?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ICHTHUS]

ICHTHUS is almost finished but locked into "Jesus is YHWH" and "the Trinity is 100% Biblically TRUE! Anything else is demonic heresy!", and I am finished discussing Unitarianism and the Trinity, as far as this thread is concerned

I am never finished to proclaim Biblical Truth to those who will listen

 

[meshak]

Greetings meshak,

Perhaps we have strayed from your original purpose in starting this thread. We started speaking about the Trinity and non-trin because it was in the title of your thread, and for some reason you advertise the Trinity in nearly every one of your threads and posts.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am concentrating on the consistency of God and Jesus' messages.

they Both take a great deal of importance on God is one doctrine. Yet most professed believers take it so lightly including you, Trevor.

So I lump you with counterfeit non-trins.

meshak: "There is some who claim to be non-trin yet they adopt many of trin's teachings":
You seem to divide the "Christian" world into "trins" and "non-trins" and this seems to reflect your obsession in arguing against the Trinity, but you now object to a few non-trins, including myself, in this thread, to counter the wrong teaching of the Trinity.

[/QUOTE]

See the above comment.

You used to send me private messages to stir me up to argue against the Trinity. If anything you advertise the Trinity more than other member on this forum.
":

[/QUOTE]

I have tried to make sense of you. You used to be obsessed with speaking against JWs which was so odd to me. They are the only organization see the reality of the Christian world and trin churches' deception which you dont seem to care about at all. In fact, JWs are the grave enemy of your organization.

I am not sure what you understand concerning this. I believe in salvation when we affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and are thus motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Christ by means of water baptism Acts 8:5-6,12 and thereafter live the crucified and resurrected life Galatians 2:20, Romans 6:1-8. I do not endorse OSAS.

[/QUOTE]
"I am saved"

How you can not see this clear deceptive doctrine is beyond me.

Jesus is the only one who gives approval to being saved. You just dont appoint yourself of judging your salvation.

meshak: " "faithfulness to Jesus is not a requirement for salvation" ":
If a person directly states this then they are wrong, but I suspect some that say this, believe some form of Dispensationalism, and they divide the believers into two groups. For some reason you also seem to reject the preaching and teaching of the Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul. Both you and they may have wrong perspectives on this item if we include Paul in the conversation.

[/QUOTE]
Paul is not my Lord.

How am I rejecting the teaching of Aposles?

Anyway, Jesus emphasizes to be faithfulness to God and Jesus' commandments to the end over and over.

meshak: " "pro-military for Christians" "
I agree with you to a certain extent here, but I am not a pacifist. God uses war to accomplish His purpose.

[/QUOTE]

You dont have to be a pacifist to imitate what Jesus did. Jesus never harmed anyone even for self-defense.

meshak: " "They observe Christmas" "
I do not observe Christmas, but tolerate some who do have a time of family gathering, and even decorating a tree and exchanging gifts. Most that I would tolerate do not believe that Jesus was born in mid-winter, but they may consider the birth of Jesus important.

[/QUOTE]

Christmas is being used by the world for the material world. It is not of God.

meshak: "Those are the major characteristics of online non-trins."
I was not conscious that these are the major characteristics of those who are Unitarians on this forum. What is your definition of a True non-trin, those that agree with all of your doctrines, including your wrong ones?

Kind regards
Trevor

Because I am basing my faith with God is one, and since trin churches made up so many anti-christ teachings and practices, I will consider them not true followers of Christ.

Yes, since you dont recognize their deception, I consider you one of the online non-trin and not true non-trin.

BTW, I have so many differences with JWs beliefs but they are insignificant compared to triune god worshipping.

And they don't like me because I don't agree with everything they claim and practice.

We all will be judged according to our witnessing.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again meshak,

Yes, I am concentrating on the consistency of God and Jesus' messages. they Both take a great deal of importance on God is one doctrine. Yet most professed believers take it so lightly including you, Trevor. So I lump you with counterfeit non-trins.

I appreciate your long response, and I was a bit worried that I would offend you totally, but nevertheless you bounced back, but you have cast me into the waste paper basket or worse proclaiming from your pedestal that I am a counterfeit non-trins (you are advertising the Trinity here again). I am glad you are not my Judge. A brief comment on the above, I assume you are repeating your view when you say "I am concentrating on the consistency of God and Jesus' messages", that we can reject Paul and his preaching and teaching. Even Revelation 2 and 3 depend a great deal upon the establishment by Paul of the early Congregations in and around Ephesus. I also consider the book of The Acts as vital to the whole understanding of the 26 books of the NT. What books do you have in your NT? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? What about the Book of Revelation? And I do not take the preaching and teaching of God through Jesus lightly. The Gospel messages recorded in Matthew-John are the most profound words ever spoken and written and I especially like Matthew chapters 5-7 and Matthew 11:25-27,28-30. My advice is that you have progressed in one area, but you need to open your understanding in The Acts and Paul's writings and message.

I have tried to make sense of you. You used to be obsessed with speaking against JWs which was so odd to me. They are the only organization see the reality of the Christian world and trin churches' deception which you dont seem to care about at all. In fact, JWs are the grave enemy of your organization.

No, I had hoped by speaking against some of the errors of the JWs, some of which you agree with me, that I would be able to correct them, and as a result cut the very strong grip that the JW Org has on each member, who has a fear of being shunned by family and friends. In other words there is a true spiritual life outside the JW movement. On the other hand, your previous association with the JWs has not severed your fixation that they are the only movement that are almost true, even though you have cut ties, or they have cut your ties with them, and I think you have stated that this happened in Japan. The JWs are not the grave enemies of my fellowship. They have many doctrines that are closer to our teachings, such as 1000 year Kingdom. One God, Jesus is the Son of God, man is mortal and does not have an immortal soul. I personally have had many constructive sessions with JWs, but disagree with some of their ideas, such as the 144,000, blood transfusions, the physical return of Jesus to the earth, and they reject what I consider an important part of the 1000 years, the pre-millennial return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and their conversion at the return of Jesus, and their establishment as the first dominion of the Kingdom of God, with the other mortal nations subjected and learning the ways of God. The JWs teach that essentially all the present nations will be wiped out and only inhabited by the JWs and other second class faithful from the days of Jesus, and all the faithful of the OT will also not be part of the 144,000 but will also be only among the second-class citizens on the earth. You respect the JWs, I have a great respect for some of the JWs that I have met, and one of these helped me through a difficult stage in my life and a particular incident, but I do not respect some of their teachings.

"I am saved" How you can not see this clear deceptive doctrine is beyond me. Jesus is the only one who gives approval to being saved. You just dont appoint yourself of judging your salvation.

Yes, Jesus is the Judge and I would also suggest that you read 1 Corinthians 4:3-5, online if necessary if you have cut the pages out of your Bible, and also 2 Timothy 4:1,6-7,8. Also you seem to be judging everyone that does not agree with your narrow, erroneous perspective. I will leave the rest of your long post and my longer reply by quoting the following:
Acts 28:23–31 (KJV: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
These are the closing words of Luke's historical treatise, The Acts. He takes up the words of Isaiah 6 and applies them to the Jews of Rome. As such this is the fourth use of Isaiah 6:9-10, three of them applied to the ministry of Jesus. This also shows that Paul's preaching and teaching (which you reject) is a continuation of the work and ministry of Jesus, refer also to Isaiah 49:6. This reference states that the Gentiles would hear the salvation offered in the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name, in other words they would be saved.

I will look at the rest of your post later.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[meshak]

"I am concentrating on the consistency of God and Jesus' messages", that we can reject Paul and his preaching and teaching.

[/QUOTE]

I never said "we" can reject, I say I don't put Paul on the pedestal like most of you do.

Salvation is all about God's kingdom and I dont need Paul's teachings to learn how to be saved and approved to be in God's kingdom.

Even Revelation 2 and 3 depend a great deal upon the establishment by Paul of the early Congregations in and around Ephesus. I also consider the book of The Acts as vital to the whole understanding of the 26 books of the NT. What books do you have in your NT? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? What about the Book of Revelation? And I do not take the preaching and teaching of God through Jesus lightly. The Gospel messages recorded in Matthew-John are the most profound words ever spoken and written and I especially like Matthew chapters 5-7 and Matthew 11:25-27,28-30. My advice is that you have progressed in one area, but you need to open your understanding in The Acts and Paul's writings and message.

[/QUOTE]

See the above.

No, I had hoped by speaking against some of the errors of the JWs, some of which you agree with me, that I would be able to correct them, and as a result cut the very strong grip that the JW Org has on each member, who has a fear of being shunned by family and friends. In other words there is a true spiritual life outside the JW movement. On the other hand, your previous association with the JWs has not severed your fixation that they are the only movement that are almost true, even though you have cut ties, or they have cut your ties with them, and I think you have stated that this happened in Japan.

[/QUOTE]

Nope, I never had any interaction with JWs in Okinawa.

The JWs are not the grave enemies of my fellowship. They have many doctrines that are closer to our teachings, such as 1000 year Kingdom. One God, Jesus is the Son of God, man is mortal and does not have an immortal soul. I personally have had many constructive sessions with JWs, but disagree with some of their ideas, such as the 144,000, blood transfusions, the physical return of Jesus to the earth, and they reject what I consider an important part of the 1000 years, the pre-millennial return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and their conversion at the return of Jesus, and their establishment as the first dominion of the Kingdom of God, with the other mortal nations subjected and learning the ways of God. The JWs teach that essentially all the present nations will be wiped out and only inhabited by the JWs and other second class faithful from the days of Jesus, and all the faithful of the OT will also not be part of the 144,000 but will also be only among the second-class citizens on the earth. You respect the JWs, I have a great respect for some of the JWs that I have met, and one of these helped me through a difficult stage in my life and a particular incident, but I do not respect some of their teachings.

[/QUOTE]

You never know in this kind of prophecy who is right. And it is so insignificant compared to worshipping a false god, a triune god.

Yes, Jesus is the Judge and I would also suggest that you read 1 Corinthians 4:3-5, online if necessary if you have cut the pages out of your Bible, and also 2 Timothy 4:1,6-7,8. Also you seem to be judging everyone that does not agree with your narrow, erroneous perspective. I will leave the rest of your long post and my longer reply by quoting the following:
Acts 28:23–31 (KJV: 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
These are the closing words of Luke's historical treatise, The Acts. He takes up the words of Isaiah 6 and applies them to the Jews of Rome. As such this is the fourth use of Isaiah 6:9-10, three of them applied to the ministry of Jesus. This also shows that Paul's preaching and teaching (which you reject) is a continuation of the work and ministry of Jesus, refer also to Isaiah 49:6. This reference states that the Gentiles would hear the salvation offered in the preaching of the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name, in other words they would be saved.

[/QUOTE]

Those are debatable. All I spread is a clear error of trin churches.

I will look at the rest of your post later.

Kind regards
Trevor

I hope you pay attention to my point instead of avoiding it.

Your posts are so lengthy and concentrate on all debatable subjects. I don't debate about those which you are so making such a big deal out of it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again meshak,

Paul is not my Lord. How am I rejecting the teaching of Aposles? Anyway, Jesus emphasizes to be faithfulness to God and Jesus' commandments to the end over and over.

I never said "we" can reject, I say I don't put Paul on the pedestal like most of you do.
Salvation is all about God's kingdom and I dont need Paul's teachings to learn how to be saved and approved to be in God's kingdom.

I stated that you seem to ignore or reject and now you may have corrected me by suggesting you downplay the teachings of Paul, and yet he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, that is in particular, those who are not of Jewish descent. If God and Jesus appointed Paul to this role, then we should listen to him as speaking the inspired word of God. We have a senior expositor, now deceased, and he used to say "every word of God is important" and occasionally when he wanted to highlight a particular word, he would say "and this one is especially important". We are not entitled to diminish any part of what God has spoken, and only elevate another portion.

You dont have to be a pacifist to imitate what Jesus did. Jesus never harmed anyone even for self-defense.

I agree, but at one time you objected to my view of prophecy and possibly to how God uses warfare to accomplish his purpose.

Christmas is being used by the world for the material world. It is not of God.

Part of my experience when growing up was that my sister had a good JW friend and she asked her how she got on at Christmas time. She said that she was very happy as only her mother was a JW and her Dad lavished many presents on her. I do not know how JW children fare with both parents as JWs. I grew up celebrating Christmas, but some years after my marriage I decided not to celebrate Christmas, and I replaced the occasion by still giving my four children "end of the year presents", even until now, but also include grandchildren. My parents still invited the whole family to their place for a family get together and fruit cake, no real mention of the birth of Christ at this time. Another family celebrates Hanukkah instead, including a lively Esther play involving the various children, and they still seem to be happy many days later. In Australia we celebrate "The Queen's Official Birthday" on the second Monday in June, and this is not her actual birthday, but a holiday tradition. It is close to King George V's birthday, her father's was in December and QE2's actual birthday is on April 21st. I do not think she is offended, but approves the Queen's Honour List in June every year. No, Christmas is not directly from God, but I see no real harm done, but it is one of the JW "important" tenets to deny Christmas. I do not know why you worry about this, except for your JW tradition. To me it is no big deal.

Because I am basing my faith with God is one, and since trin churches made up so many anti-christ teachings and practices, I will consider them not true followers of Christ.
Yes, since you dont recognize their deception, I consider you one of the online non-trin and not true non-trin.

I am glad that God and Jesus are my Judge, not you.

BTW, I have so many differences with JWs beliefs but they are insignificant compared to triune god worshipping.
And they don't like me because I don't agree with everything they claim and practice.

But you have supported them against me when I disagree with any of their teachings.

We all will be judged according to our witnessing.

This is a carry over from your JW days. when there is a merit system for preaching, and also almost a policing system to ensure that the various members do the correct quota of hours or visits. I think it is hours, as one commentator has observed that the JW walk is very slow, like a shuffle, and not business like, as they only have to fill in the hours, and they are really reticent to knock on too many doors.

You never know in this kind of prophecy who is right. And it is so insignificant compared to worshipping a false god, a triune god.

ALL of the Word of God is important.

Those are debatable. All I spread is a clear error of trin churches.

I suggest that this is out of balance. You also now have turned your attention against Unitarians that do not agree with you and you claim that I am counterfeit.

I hope you pay attention to my point instead of avoiding it.

Yes, I am trying to address all of what you are saying. Also I have now covered both of your posts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[meshak]

Greetings again meshak,


I stated that you seem to ignore or reject and now you may have corrected me by suggesting you downplay the teachings of Paul, and yet he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, that is in particular, those who are not of Jewish descent. If God and Jesus appointed Paul to this role, then we should listen to him as speaking the inspired word of God. We have a senior expositor, now deceased, and he used to say "every word of God is important" and occasionally when he wanted to highlight a particular word, he would say "and this one is especially important". We are not entitled to diminish any part of what God has spoken, and only elevate another portion.

I agree, but at one time you objected to my view of prophecy and possibly to how God uses warfare to accomplish his purpose.

Part of my experience when growing up was that my sister had a good JW friend and she asked her how she got on at Christmas time. She said that she was very happy as only her mother was a JW and her Dad lavished many presents on her. I do not know how JW children fare with both parents as JWs. I grew up celebrating Christmas, but some years after my marriage I decided not to celebrate Christmas, and I replaced the occasion by still giving my four children "end of the year presents", even until now, but also include grandchildren. My parents still invited the whole family to their place for a family get together and fruit cake, no real mention of the birth of Christ at this time. Another family celebrates Hanukkah instead, including a lively Esther play involving the various children, and they still seem to be happy many days later. In Australia we celebrate "The Queen's Official Birthday" on the second Monday in June, and this is not her actual birthday, but a holiday tradition. It is close to King George V's birthday, her father's was in December and QE2's actual birthday is on April 21st. I do not think she is offended, but approves the Queen's Honour List in June every year. No, Christmas is not directly from God, but I see no real harm done, but it is one of the JW "important" tenets to deny Christmas. I do not know why you worry about this, except for your JW tradition. To me it is no big deal.

[/QUOTE]

thank you for your testimony but this has nothing to do with the point I am making.

I am glad that God and Jesus are my Judge, not you.

[/QUOTE]

I never claim to be anyone's judge. I just offer my observation of how corrupt the Christian world is overall. If anyone rejects it I can do nothing about it. Everyone has their own faith to pursue.

But you have supported them against me when I disagree with any of their teachings.

[
[/QUOTE]

No, I am not offended at all about you disagreeing with their teachings, I told you this over and over too. I say you are obsessed to challenge them on debatable topics.

This is a carry over from your JW days. when there is a merit system for preaching, and also almost a policing system to ensure that the various members do the correct quota of hours or visits. I think it is hours, as one commentator has observed that the JW walk is very slow, like a shuffle, and not business like, as they only have to fill in the hours, and they are really reticent to knock on too many doors.

ALL of the Word of God is important.

I suggest that this is out of balance. You also now have turned your attention against Unitarians that do not agree with you and you claim that I am counterfeit.

Yes, I am trying to address all of what you are saying. Also I have now covered both of your posts.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, you covered all of the things I listed. Yet, you are still off the mark my point big time.

I have been telling you I only offer what is the most important commandment and it is God is one which you repeatedly disregard.

And it is not debatable, It is a clear and simple teaching of God and Jesus.

This is the first step in God's kingdom.

You cannot get into His kingdom without taking the first step.

 

[meshak]

Everyone who is reading this thread:

My comment to @TrevorL is for you too.

thank you, especially this part:

Yes, you covered all of the things I listed. Yet, you are still off the mark my point big time.

I have been telling you I only offer what is the most important commandment and it is God is one which you repeatedly disregard.

And it is not debatable, It is a clear and simple teaching of God and Jesus.

This is the first step in God's kingdom.

You cannot get into His kingdom without taking the first step.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again meshak,

I have been telling you I only offer what is the most important commandment and it is God is one which you repeatedly disregard.

I do not disregard this first and second commandment.

This is the first step in God's kingdom. You cannot get into His kingdom without the first step.

The first step is to affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name and be thus motivated to identify with the death and resurrection of Jesus by means of water baptism Acts 8:5-6,12, and the next process is to continue to live the crucified and resurrected life Galatians 2:20 and then patiently wait for the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom 2 Timothy 4:1,6-7,8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[meshak]

Greetings again meshak,

I do not disregard this first and second commandment.

My point is you don't treat it as the most important commandment so do most Christians except JWs.

That's why I have great respect for JWs.