The Trinity in Creation in The Old Testament

[ICHTHUS]

Yes, but not how you think.

You mean the boys that give me the beat?

how do you explain Isaiah 9:6, which is about Jesus Christ, where the New World Translation says of Jesus, that He is the "Mighty God"? https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/9/

In the following chapter, speaking of Jehovah, we read, "The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God" (verse 21) https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/10/

The Hebrew is the exact same in both places, "’êl Gibbôr"

Clearly there are TWO Persons Who are EQUALLY "Mighty God".

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

how do you explain Isaiah 9:6, which is about Jesus Christ, where the New World Translation says of Jesus, that He is the "Mighty God"? https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/9/

In the following chapter, speaking of Jehovah, we read, "The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God" (verse 21) https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/10/

The Hebrew is the exact same in both places, "’êl Gibbôr"

Clearly there are TWO Persons Who are EQUALLY "Mighty God".

It's written in Hebrew.
You have to add, the, of and from, according to wisdom.
He is the counselor from or of the Mighty God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again ICTHUS,

The מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה‎ Malakh YHWH who appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush, is distinct from "The Lord", as He is The Messenger OF YHWH. However, this same מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה‎ Malakh YHWH, in verse 2, is also Himself, YHWH, as in verse 4, and ELOHIM, as in verse 4.

Yes, but He is the Angel of YHWH, and represents the One God, YHWH, God the Father and is not God the Son.

This same מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה‎ Malakh YHWH, when asked by Moses of His Name, says "’Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh" I AM WHO I AM, or, as the LXX says, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", that is, "I am Who Exists".

The Angel is telling Moses the Name of YHWH, not himself. Ehyeh asher Ehyeh should be translated I will be who I will be as per Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins and AB Davidson.

or, as the LXX says, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", that is, "I am Who Exists".

The LXX is a poor translation of Exodus 3:14.

This is what Jesus meant in John 8:58, ""πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM".

John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" the same as John 8:24,28, that is "I am the Christ", and John 8:58 is not quoting Exodus 3:14.

The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important.

Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham Genesis 3:15, Psalm 8.

The Bible is very clear, that humans are Created in the Image of GOD alone, and not God and Created angels!

Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5. Also consider Genesis 3:5, Hebrews 13:2.

is Jesus Christ a created being?

Yes, Psalm 8:5, Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ICHTHUS]

It's written in Hebrew.
You have to add, the, of and from, according to wisdom.
He is the counselor from or of the Mighty God.

really, here it is from JW.org, "His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace" Note, HIS NAME, that is the Name of the Child, Who is Jesus Christ. there is NO from of of in the Hebrew!

Targum Jonathan, This Aramaic paraphrase dates from the 1st century A.D. or earlier.

“The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and he has taken the law upon himself to keep it. His name is called from eternity wonderful, the mighty God who liveth to eternity, the Messiah whose peace shall be great upon us in his days.” (https://www.sefaria.org/Targum_Jonathan_on_Isaiah.9.6)

“And there was called His name from of old, Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, He who lives for ever, the Messiah, in whose days peace shall increase upon us.” (J. F. Stenning, The Targum of Isaiah. Oxford, 1949)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/yeshayahu-isaiah-chapter-9)

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

there is NO from of of in the Hebrew!

That's what I said.
That's why one needs wisdom.

 

[ICHTHUS]

Greetings again ICTHUS,

Yes, but He is the Angel of YHWH, and represents the One God, YHWH, God the Father and is not God the Son.

The Angel is telling Moses the Name of YHWH, not himself. Ehyeh asher Ehyeh should be translated I will be who I will be as per Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins and AB Davidson.

The LXX is a poor translation of Exodus 3:14.

John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" the same as John 8:24,28, that is "I am the Christ", and John 8:58 is not quoting Exodus 3:14.


Jesus was in the plan and purpose of God before Abraham Genesis 3:15, Psalm 8.

Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5. Also consider Genesis 3:5, Hebrews 13:2.

Yes, Psalm 8:5, Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14.

Kind regards
Trevor

In Exodus 3, it is the "Messenger of YHWH", Who Speaks to Moses, not as one representing YHWH, but speaks in the first Person "Moreover he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”. This is the same Person Who says in verse 14, "And G-d said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.', this is from a Jewish website, https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/shemot-exodus-chapter-3

"The explanation of the name as given in Exodus 3:14, Eheyeh-Asher-Eheyeh, “I-Am-Who-I Am,” (Encyclopaedia Judaica).

"And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’" (The Jewish Publication Society of America, The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic Text ).

the LXX is the work of Jews about 100 years before Christ came!

 

[ICHTHUS]

That's what I said.
That's why one needs wisdom.

you are trying every way to ignore what the Bible actually says. there is no point in any further discussion on this

 

[ICHTHUS]

John 8:58 should be translated "I am he" the same as John 8:24,28, that is "I am the Christ", and John 8:58 is not quoting Exodus 3:14.

Obvious that you cannot read Greek, there is NO "HE" in the Greek text. It is very clear from the response of the Jews in 8:59, that they understood Jesus was here saying that He is The Great I AM. That is why they wanted to stone Him. John 8:24 is clear, that unless people agree that Jesus Chris IS I AM, as in the Eternal, uncreated Almighty God, they will end up in eternal punishment

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

you are trying every way to ignore what the Bible actually says. there is no point in any further discussion on this

Not if you wanna ignore the implications of who the Messiah was.
The wonderful counselor from the mighty God.
Deuteronomy 18:18
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth.
He will tell them everything I command him.

C'mon big boy, tell me that's not the Messiah. (counselor)

 

[ICHTHUS]

Not if you wanna ignore the implications of who the Messiah was.
The wonderful counselor from the mighty God.
Deuteronomy 18:18
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.

C'mon big boy, tell me that's not the Messiah. (counselor)

There is no FROM before Mighty God. The JWs corrupted Revelation 3.14 by going against the Greek grammar by reading "Beginning of the creation by God". The Greek is in the genitive which is OF God, because Jesus is The Creator

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

There is no FROM before Mighty God. The JWs corrupted Revelation 3.14 by going against the Greek grammar by reading "Beginning of the creation by God". The Greek is in the genitive which is OF God, because Jesus is The Creator

If he didn't come from God, where did he come from?
Here let me help you a bit.
I'm a witness of Jehovah, not a Jehovah's Witness.
Yore a barkin' up the wrong tree.

 

[ICHTHUS]

If he didn't come from God, where did he come from?
Here let me help you a bit.
I'm a witness of Jehovah, not a Jehovah's Witness.
Yore a barkin' up the wrong tree.

But you seem to have problems accepting that Jesus Christ is YHWH, Almighty God