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The Trinity in Creation in The Old Testament

1Mind1Spirit said:
There's only one problem with your 100% coequal scenario.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, ‘I go away and come again unto you.’ If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice because I said, ‘I go unto the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
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and what of it? Jesus Christ, as the God-Man, after His Incarnation, made Himself "subject" to the Father, for His time on earth. This is very clear from John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 2:9.

As God-Man, there were times when Jesus acted as the Person Jesus Christ, according to His "human nature", like being tired, hungry, having to "grow in wisdom", etc. Other times He is seen to be Almighty God, when forgiving sins, walking on water, and saying to the Jews in John chapter 5, "that all may Honor the Son, EXACTLY AS (so the Greek) they Honor the Father. He who doesn’t Honor the Son doesn’t Honor the Father who sent Him"

Here Jesus says that the Father "sent Him"; yet He demands EQUAL HONOR to the Father! This would be blasphemy if Jesus were in any way "less" than the Father. In fact, what Jesus told these Jews in verse 17, "But Jesus answered them, “My Father is still working, so I am working, too", prompted this response from the Jews, "For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (verse 18). the Jews clearly understood what Jesus was telling them, that He was EQUAL to the Father!

Likewise in John chapter 10, Jesus says, "I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand" (28-29). Here, even though Jesus says, My Father...is greater than all", He nonetheless makes His own Power, Protection and Authority EQUAL to the Father's. "My Hand...His Hand". Notice how Jesus places Himself here before the Father. In Verse 30 Jesus then says, "I and the Father, we are ONE". And in verse 33 the Jews again respond, "The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father says to WORSHIP Jesus, In verse 8 and 9, the Father addresses Jesus as God, "Your Throne O God...therefore O God, Your God..."

In verses 10-12, the Father says that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL Creator of the Universe!
 
1Mind1Spirit said:
When Jesus says all that the Father has is mine, he is speaking of the things God created.
God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of woman.
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ONLY when Jesus Christ became Incarnate, and till the Cross.

Do you not believe in John 1:1?
 
ICHTHUS said:
and what of it? Jesus Christ, as the God-Man, after His Incarnation, made Himself "subject" to the Father, for His time on earth. This is very clear from John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 2:9.

As God-Man, there were times when Jesus acted as the Person Jesus Christ, according to His "human nature", like being tired, hungry, having to "grow in wisdom", etc. Other times He is seen to be Almighty God, when forgiving sins, walking on water, and saying to the Jews in John chapter 5, "that all may Honor the Son, EXACTLY AS (so the Greek) they Honor the Father. He who doesn’t Honor the Son doesn’t Honor the Father who sent Him"

Here Jesus says that the Father "sent Him"; yet He demands EQUAL HONOR to the Father! This would be blasphemy if Jesus were in any way "less" than the Father. In fact, what Jesus told these Jews in verse 17, "But Jesus answered them, “My Father is still working, so I am working, too", prompted this response from the Jews, "For this cause therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (verse 18). the Jews clearly understood what Jesus was telling them, that He was EQUAL to the Father!

Likewise in John chapter 10, Jesus says, "I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand" (28-29). Here, even though Jesus says, My Father...is greater than all", He nonetheless makes His own Power, Protection and Authority EQUAL to the Father's. "My Hand...His Hand". Notice how Jesus places Himself here before the Father. In Verse 30 Jesus then says, "I and the Father, we are ONE". And in verse 33 the Jews again respond, "The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

In Hebrews 1:6, God the Father says to WORSHIP Jesus, In verse 8 and 9, the Father addresses Jesus as God, "Your Throne O God...therefore O God, Your God..."

In verses 10-12, the Father says that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL Creator of the Universe!
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You gettin' all gaw, gawd.
Honor the Son as you honor the Father.
We are recreated in Christ.
 
ICHTHUS said:
is Jesus Christ a created being?
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Did God create by speaking?
Did he say let their be Light?
Was the Light there before God spoke?

John 1:9 Context​


6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 
1Mind1Spirit said:
Did God create by speaking?
Did he say let their be Light?
Was the Light there before God spoke?

John 1:9 Context​


6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
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does not answer my direct question. I will ask again, is Jesus Christ a created being?
 
ICHTHUS said:
The fact is that in both the Old and New Testaments, there are THREE Persons, Who are distinct from each other, Who are caled YHWH.
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Right.
Which makes YHWH the only elohim that is a plurality of persons.


ICHTHUS said:
YHWH, is the Personal Name for God, which has the root meaning in the Hebrew, of "to exist", as in "The Eternal God". YHWH, is NOT "plurality of Persons" as you say. I don't know where you get this from, as the Hebrew does not say this!
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I'm not saying that the term 'YHWH' is grammatically plural, but is theologically plural.
Just as the term 'elohim' is grammatically plural in 1 Kings 11:34 & 1 Samuel 28:13, but theologically singular.
 
Sissy said:
Right.
Which makes YHWH the only elohim that is a plurality of persons.



I'm not saying that the term 'YHWH' is grammatically plural, but is theologically plural.
Just as the term 'elohim' is grammatically plural in 1 Kings 11:34 & 1 Samuel 28:13, but theologically singular.
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Theologically, He shares Himself. ✌️
 
Sissy said:
Right.
Which makes YHWH the only elohim that is a plurality of persons.



I'm not saying that the term 'YHWH' is grammatically plural, but is theologically plural.
Just as the term 'elohim' is grammatically plural in 1 Kings 11:34 & 1 Samuel 28:13, but theologically singular.
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what you say does not make any Biblical sense
 
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