The Trinity ancient Jews believed in

[Sissy]

After reading his book I was persuaded to become a binitarian. (I wasn’t well educated in theology then - certainly not Jewish theology - and was wavering on trinitarianism.) My trinitarian pastor at the time helped me to see that binitarianism wasn’t actually a biblical concept. He was “old school” trinitarian, and he acknowledged that Judaism always was and still is unitarian.

The man was heartbroken when I told him years later that I had become a unitarian. As far as he was concerned, I had embraced “the error of Judaism”. (No matter that I believe Jesus is the Messiah and never converted to Judaism. I’m a Christian, Anabaptist.)

Interestingly, he and I co-officiated at a funeral service for a trinitarian family member of mine (at my family member’s request) decades later. He wasn’t particularly rude but he kept his distance from me (I spoke to him but he refused to speak to me, or even acknowledge my presence beyond a quick nod when he had finished speaking - the man is hard core trinitarian) and made it clear to all present that I was persona non grata. Awkward, but we both faithfully discharged our duties as clergymen.

Touching, but how does that have anything at all to do with the writings of ancient Jews that believed YHWH was a plurality?

Listen, there is plenty of documentation that ancient Jews believed YHWH was a plurality.
There is also documentation that ancient Jews did not.
But both were Jews that believed YHWH was the unique God that was unlike all other gods, and they both believed The Most High God, YHWH, was the only god to be worshipped.
Just like today, there are some Jews that believe YHWH is a plurality and some do not.

So I hope you are not under the impression that "Judaism" has always been a perpetual single viewpoint.
Heck, there were some ancient Jews that believed that YHWH had 10 personalities.

"Na na na na na you trinitarians ........ we got 10, you only got 3."​

​

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Anyway, now that we know ancient Jews did and didn't believe YHWH was a plurality, we should move on to some some of the scriptures they used to arrive at the conclusions they did.

 

[Mattathias]

Touching, but how does that have anything at all to do with the writings of ancient Jews that believed YHWH was a plurality?

Listen, there is plenty of documentation that ancient Jews believed YHWH was a plurality.
There is also documentation that ancient Jews did not.
But both were Jews that believed YHWH was the unique God that was unlike all other gods, and they both believed The Most High God, YHWH, was the only god to be worshipped.
Just like today, there are some Jews that believe YHWH is a plurality and some do not.

So I hope you are not under the impression that "Judaism" has always been a perpetual single viewpoint.
Heck, there were some ancient Jews that believed that YHWH had 10 personalities.

"Na na na na na you trinitarians ........ we got 10, you only got 3."​

​

​

Anyway, now that we know ancient Jews did and didn't believe YHWH was a plurality, we should move on to some some of the scriptures they used to arrive at the conclusions they did.

I’m glad you found the story touching. My pastor helped me when I was struggling with Segal’s conclusions in the late 70’s. Thanks in no small part to him, I believe today in the singularity of YHWH. For that (but not that alone) I will always be grateful to him.

The Messiah himself is a Jew and his God - YHWH - has only one personality.

 

[Mattathias]

You ascended to your God, Jesus. Who is your God?

“I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

(John 20:17)

Not only did Jesus explicitly identify who his God is, he explicitly identified who the God of his followers is. YHWH - the God of the fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of Jesus, the God of the followers of Jesus. There is no God besides the Father.

 

[Mattathias]

There are many ways a Christian might choose to respond to the video presented in the OP. I’ve long been an advocate for taking the simplest response - the Lord Jesus Christ, himself a Jew and unitarian.

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

The Messiah’s own God is the God of the fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of Israel - the Father, not the Trinity.

“The God whom Christians worship” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? …. ten Yahwehs?

”The God of the fathers” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? … ten Yahwehs?

”The God of Abraham” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? … ten Yahwehs?

“The God of Isaac” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? … ten Yahwehs?

“The God of Jacob” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? … ten Yahwehs?

”The God of Israel” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? … ten Yahwehs?

“The God of Jesus” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? … ten Yahwehs?

On the strength of Jesus’ statement in John 20:17, “The God of Jesus’ followers” - one Yahweh? two Yahwehs? three Yahwehs? … ten Yahwehs?

 

[Mr E]

I doubt it will matter much to anyone here but after I typed this I did an online search for my old trinitarian pastor. Sadly, I discovered that he died on December 31, 2018.

Remembering the life of Charles Stewart

Charles Stewart passed away. This is the full obituary where you can express condolences and share memories. Published in the The Independent on 2018-12-31.

obituaries.dailyindependent.com

RIP, Brother Stewart.

Well “that’ll teach ‘em” -as the saying goes.

 

[Mattathias]

Well “that’ll teach ‘em” -as the saying goes.

Death does teach us something. YHWH himself is deathless [immortal]. Human beings die [mortal] but will live again. Some human beings will live again briefly [mortal] and then die a second time [extinction]; other human beings will live again forever [immortal].

Immortality vs. mortality.

God vs. human beings.

Human potential: Immortality.

How to get their? SHURF. (See, hear, understand, repent and be forgiven - from the parable of the sower)

“God [immortal] vs. human beings [mortal]“ can become “God [immortal] and human beings [immortal].”

God doesn’t change. Human beings do.

How does that tie in with how many Yahwehs there are?

Jesus isn’t Yahweh. His God / the one God is Yahweh. Jesus is a human being.

 

[Mattathias]

Back to the two powers in heaven - Yahweh and his vice regent, a Jewish human being (changed from mortal to immortal) who Christians know is Jesus of Nazareth.

Yahweh and Jesus. Not Yahweh and Yahweh.

One Yahweh; not two Yahwehs.

 

[patrick jane]

Back to the two powers in heaven - Yahweh and his vice regent, a Jewish human being (changed from mortal to immortal) who Christians know is Jesus of Nazareth.

Yahweh and Jesus. Not Yahweh and Yahweh.

One Yahweh; not two Yahwehs.

You make a strong case.

 

[Mattathias]

You make a strong case.

Thank you.

There are two sides to every case.

Is there a stronger case? Members of a jury must hear both sides of a case presented before rendering a verdict.

I’m decided, but I still periodically ask myself that question.

Rehearing a case. Revisiting a decision.

Does God have an issue with that? I don’t think so, but I’ve met many Christians who think otherwise.

 

[patrick jane]

Thank you.

There are two sides to every case.

Is there a stronger case? Members of a jury must hear both sides of a case presented before rendering a verdict.

I’m decided, but I still periodically ask myself that question.

Rehearing a case. Revisiting a decision.

Does God have an issue with that? I don’t think so, but I’ve met many Christians who think otherwise.

Exactly. My stance, after much debate, is that maybe we just don't know and we have to humble ourselves when trying to define God. I believe that if I am wrong about the triune nature of God, I will be forgiven, God won't count that against us. I accept the beliefs of others who do not hold to the trinity.

 

[Sissy]

Back to the two powers in heaven - Yahweh and his vice regent, a Jewish human being (changed from mortal to immortal) who Christians know is Jesus of Nazareth.

Yahweh and Jesus. Not Yahweh and Yahweh.

One Yahweh; not two Yahwehs.

Scripture doesn't refer to the Angel of the Lord as a vice regent, scripture refers to Him as YHWH.

And yep, there is only one YHWH which happens to be a plurality.
We have nothing to compare the uniqueness of YHWH to, YHWH is beyond our comprehension so there is no reason at all why YHWH cannot be a plurality since YHWH is like nothing else.
The ancient Jews that believed YHWH to be a plurality didn't think they could comprehend it fully, but just accepted what scripture said about YHWH.
And just like most throughout the ages tried to make sense of it the best they could.

 

[Mattathias]

Scripture doesn't refer to the Angel of the Lord as a vice regent, scripture refers to Him as YHWH.

The angel of the Lord isn’t Yahweh’s vice regent. A Jewish man is.

And yep, there is only one YHWH which happens to be a plurality.

I may have you confused with someone else but I think I recall you saying in a conversation with me on TF that there are two Yahwehs. I’ll see if I can locate it.

We have nothing to compare the uniqueness of YHWH to, YHWH is beyond our comprehension so there is no reason at all why YHWH cannot be a plurality since YHWH is like nothing else.

I don’t know who you’re speaking for when you say “we” but you aren’t speaking for me. I don’t believe YHWH is beyond comprehension.

The ancient Jews that believed YHWH to be a plurality didn't think they could comprehend it fully, but just accepted what scripture said about YHWH.
And just like most throughout the ages tried to make sense of it the best they could.

You know my position on the ancient Jews / Judaism so I’ll keep my response simple: The ancient Jews weren’t trinitarians and Judaism isn’t a trinitarian religion.