The Trinity ancient Jews believed in

[Sissy]

The concept of YHWH being a divine unity of three distinct from each other and interacting with each other is not a concept invented by the Church, but was a common belief among ancient Jews for centuries.


11 minute video

 

[Mattathias]

There are many ways a Christian might choose to respond to the video presented in the OP. I’ve long been an advocate for taking the simplest response - the Lord Jesus Christ, himself a Jew and unitarian.

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

The Messiah’s own God is the God of the fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of Israel - the Father, not the Trinity.

 

[Arial]

The concept of YHWH being a divine unity of three distinct from each other and interacting with each other is not a concept invented by the Church, but was a common belief among ancient Jews for centuries.


11 minute video

Excellent! Excellent! Excellent!
To me it is obvious in reading OT scripture that the Hebrews had a concept of a plurality in the One God. And that God Himself revealed this to them in the process of revealing Himself. How much they understood, I do not know, a lot of things remained a mystery to them that have been revealed in the incarnate Son. But it is obvious that they considered the Holy Spirit God, and to some anyway that Messiah is God. What the video said about the Angel of the Lord in Jewish thought, I had not heard or recognized, and I found it most interesting. The video opened the door to another depth for me, and I appreciate that Sissy.

In any case, the faithful Israelites worshiped the One true God, and if there is a plurality to Him that they did not understand in the way that we are able to since A.D. began, they worshiped a unified plurality. To impose one's own opposing beliefs about this onto people long dead, or especially onto Jesus, is to way overstep what we are capable of.

Thanks again.

 

[Mattathias]

Judaism is unitarian, not trinitarian. The ancient Jews were no more trinitarian than are modern day Jews. Trinitarianism is unique to Christianity - a uniqueness denied by the video, and often by non-trinitarians, too - and the post-biblical development of the doctrine of the Trinity is easily traced in church history.

The video is a “Jerry Springer treatment” of Jewish sources and few Jews (and Christian scholars) will be persuaded by it. It’s common knowledge that the Jews used personification, and it’s equally well-known that it’s a leap from personification - which isn’t trinitarianism - to hypostasianism, which comes to us from Hellenism / Greek philosophy, is a critical component of trinitarianism and the indispensable tool of the early church fathers. Without it there would be no doctrine of the Trinity.

Even Jewish mysticism, which the video leans on, is incompatible with trinitarianism.

The gold standard for Christians should be Jesus of Nazareth. He tells us unequivocally who his God and the God of his apostles and disciples is.

 

[Mattathias]

Writing about Judaism and the authors of the Old Testament. Edmund J. Fortman (a trinitarian scholar) writes,

“From all this it seems clear that there was no expectation in Judaism of a divine Messiah. However great the person and work of the Anointed One were to be, he was certainly to be a creature. Whether the Jews viewed the Messiah as the pre-existent son of man or the richly endowed but purely human son of David, they saw in him only a creature, only Yahweh’s administrator, vested with powers from Him but wholly subordinate to Him. It is in Yahweh Himself that the messianic kingdom centers. …

There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a divine paternity and filiation within the Godhead. …

Many of the sacred writers spoke of a Messiah who was to be Yahweh’s agent in establishing the kingdom of Yahweh in the messianic age. However, they regarded the Messiah not as a divine person but as a creature, a charismatic leader, a Davidic king.

Thus the Old Testament writings about God neither express nor imply any idea of or belief in a plurality or trinity of persons within the one Godhead. Even to see in them suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”

(The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 8, 9)

Trinitarian scholarship knows where trinitarianism comes from - Christianity, not Judaism.

 

[Sissy]

Excellent! Excellent! Excellent!
To me it is obvious in reading OT scripture that the Hebrews had a concept of a plurality in the One God. And that God Himself revealed this to them in the process of revealing Himself. How much they understood, I do not know, a lot of things remained a mystery to them that have been revealed in the incarnate Son. But it is obvious that they considered the Holy Spirit God, and to some anyway that Messiah is God. What the video said about the Angel of the Lord in Jewish thought, I had not heard or recognized, and I found it most interesting. The video opened the door to another depth for me, and I appreciate that Sissy.

In any case, the faithful Israelites worshiped the One true God, and if there is a plurality to Him that they did not understand in the way that we are able to since A.D. began, they worshiped a unified plurality. To impose one's own opposing beliefs about this onto people long dead, or especially onto Jesus, is to way overstep what we are capable of.

Thanks again.

Yep.
There is documentation upon documentation showing writings of ancient Jews that recognize the plurality of YHWH in scripture.

The following book (written by a Jew, Alan F. Segal) is full of source after source with excerpts from writings of ancient Jews and their belief in the plurality of YHWH for centuries.
There are other books and dissertations and Dead Sea Scrolls as well that speak of it, but this book is sourced and footnoted to the hilt making it impossible to deny that ancient Jews believed in the plurality of YHWH for centuries.

 

[Mattathias]

Yep.
There is documentation upon documentation showing writings of ancient Jews that recognize the plurality of YHWH in scripture.

The following book (written by a Jew, Alan F. Segal) is full of source after source with excerpts from writings of ancient Jews and their belief in the plurality of YHWH for centuries.
There are other books and dissertations and Dead Sea Scrolls as well that speak of it, but this book is sourced and footnoted to the hilt making it impossible to deny that ancient Jews believed in the plurality of YHWH for centuries.

View attachment 62

See the unitarian and trinitarian scholarship which denies that which you suggest is undeniable.

Even if we ignore the sources I’m alluding to, Jesus of Nazareth wasn’t, isn’t and never will himself be a trinitarian. His God, YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of the Jews, is only one person, the Father.

Jesus knows. Jesus believes. Jesus says. That persuades me. Why doesn’t it persuade you?

 

[Sissy]

See the unitarian and trinitarian scholarship which denies that which you suggest is undeniable.

There are way too many citations of ancient Jews for it to be deniable.

Even if we ignore the sources I’m alluding to, Jesus of Nazareth wasn’t, isn’t and never will himself be a trinitarian. His God, YHWH, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, the God of the Jews, is only one person, the Father.

Why doesn’t that persuade you?

I believe Jesus Himself stated that He was YHWH which is why so many in scripture wanted Him killed.
Not only that but His followers believed it too.

 

[Mattathias]

While I find it odd that trinitarian scholarship isn’t taken more seriously by trinitarians, I nevertheless see it as a useful tool for trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike.

Since the Angel of the Lord is being discussed in this thread, in addition to the Trinity, I think it’s worth pointing out that Judaism has never thought of the angel as a person who is himself the one God.

Turning again to serious trinitarian scholarship, Harold O.J. Brown informs us,

”Christians often understand the Angel of the Lord, who appears frequently in the Old Testament, as a preincarnation reference to Christ the Son, but this is an inference that pre-Christian Jewish readers did not draw and that post-Christian Jews vigorously deny.”

(Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of TheChurch, p. 148)

The inference doesn’t come from Judaism; it comes from Christianity.

 

[Mattathias]

There are way too many citations of ancient Jews for it to be deniable.

The citations are fine. It’s the explanation of them which are faulty.

I believe Jesus Himself stated that He was YHWH which is why so many in scripture wanted Him killed.
Not only that but His followers believed it too.

Jesus is a Jew. His God is YHWH, but there is no record of him “stating” that he himself is YHWH. He’s very plain spoken about his God being the Father. Do you believe he ”stated” that his God is the Trinity?

 

[Mattathias]

Dr. Brown continues,

“If there are suggestions of the Trinity in the Old Testament…”

Why “if” rather than “since”?

The main argument in this thread is that Judaism / the Jews were trinitarian. Dr. Brown in particular, and trinitarian scholarship in general, knows that the argument isn’t historically accurate.

”… it’s real source lies in the New Testament.”

My response: It’s real source lies in the early church fathers and the influence of Hellenism / Greek philosophy, not the New Testament.

“… as well as the experience of the early Christians.”

How early, Dr. Brown? His response to that question, as I will show, takes us to the third century.

“The Old Testament made it plain that God is one. The first Christians were Jews and Jewish proselytism from paganism: the former had grown up as monotheists, while the latter had explicitly repudiated polytheism in favor of Jewish monotheism.”

(Ibid., p. 148)

This is an important statement because church history demonstrates that while the church began as a sect of Judaism - with its belief firmly grounded in Jewish monotheism - it didn’t stay there. Church history documents a gradual moving away from Jewish / unitary monotheism to Christian trinitary monotheism.

 

[Mattathias]

“It is impossible to document what we now call orthodoxy in the first two centuries of Christianity; heresy often appears more prominently, so much so that orthodoxy looks like a reaction to it. But we can document orthodoxy for all the centuries since then - in other words, for close to seventeen centuries of the church’s existence.“

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies, p. 5)

What does Dr. Brown mean when he uses the term “orthodoxy”? He means trinitarianism.

What does Dr. Brown mean when he uses the term “heresy”? He means non-trinitarianism, a category into which Jewish unitary monotheism falls.

Not surprisingly, Dr. Brown finds evidence of orthodoxy / trinitarianism in Christianity from the 3rd century forward. Anyone who cares to read church history - and I encourage all Christians to do so - will find the same.

That’s the information we must keep in mind when we hear Dr. Brown speak of “the experience of the early Christians”.