1
1Mind1Spirit
Guest
Job repented.
Job's three friends had to bring animals to Job for him to sacrifice for them.
Elihu did not.
Like Elihu, Jesus did not have to repent or bring animals to sacrifice.
Job's three friends had to bring animals to Job for him to sacrifice for them.
Elihu did not.
Like Elihu, Jesus did not have to repent or bring animals to sacrifice.
D
DancesWithGnostics
Guest
The FLESH AND BONE resurrected body of Christ is different from the FLESH AND BLOOD bodies we have and that He used to have.
I thought the difference was BASIC and something everyone knew.
Apparently not.
I thought the difference was BASIC and something everyone knew.
Apparently not.
B
Bladerunner
Guest
Psalm 82...unjust judgements rebuked? (BLB)
T
TrevorL
Guest
Greetings again Arial, 1Mind1Spirit and Bladerunner,
Kind regards
Trevor
I use the word "representative" in a different sense, by comparison to substitution.
Here you use the word "substitution" and I reject this concept.
This again is simply substitution, and I reject this. The sinner under the Law still died and we still die.
I suggest that you are trying to open the door for a wrong concept. Romans 3:25-26 states that the crucifixion and resurrection declares God's righteousness, and the breakdown of this is firstly explained as "that he might be just" and then "the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus"
Perhaps one aspect that I believe that is different to this, is that Jesus himself was a human, born as a descendant of Adam, having the flesh with its lusts, subject to death. He individually had to be saved and given immortal life. He thus opened the way for us to be included, as he pleaded with the Father, "forgive them, because they know not what they do", and we who have in one way or another crucified Jesus will receive this forgiveness if we believe and become identified with him in his death and resurrection.
Yes, but he did not suffer the wrath of God to satisfy the balance of justice. His death was not a punishment from God.
Perhaps a discussion on the Book of Job could be very extensive, but I was mainly suggesting that Job is an example of why the righteous suffer and the lessons that can be understood as preparing the way for the sacrifice of Jesus. Yes, Job acted in the role of a priest for his friends, and the whole process of the Book of Job brought Job and his three friends closer to God and answered the question of whether only the righteous propser and are blessed in this life, and many other important questions. This conclusion clearly speaks against the Pentecostal Prosperity Doctrine. Jesus himself is the Lamb of the Passover, and the animals that typified his death and resurrection in ALL the sacrifices under the LAW. Jesus is fully the sacrifice.
Yes.
Kind regards
Trevor
S
Studyman
Guest
Yes, it all fits together doesn't it. God says HE causes it to rain on the just and unjust, which I think aligns with the Parable of the sower where the Wheat and Tares grow together. Both are influenced from the storms of this world. Eve was also placed in a World in which satan or Evil was present and had to choose between God's instruction, and the instruction of the "other voice".. We have all been born into such a world, where "other voices" are here which influence us. From the beginning satan has quoted some of God's word in its attempt to deceive. Jesus warned in Matt. 24, not about Islam or even Atheists. But men who come in HIS name, who preach HE is truly the Christ.. I think the serpent in the garden is representative of this "other voice", and Paul also warned of satan "transforming itself into Apostles of Christ" and Ministers of Righteousness.
I believe this is in large part, the Cross God's People bear. Jesus had to Separate Himself from the mainstream religions of the world HE was born into. Abraham as well. And Noah. Caleb is another example of being surrounded by men who called his God, their God, but was rejected by them for being obedient (Faithful), just as Jesus was rejected by the mainstream religions of HIS time for being obedient to the God they claimed to serve.
It is really quite fascinating. Here we are, with the Oracles of God in our own homes, our own hands, our own minds, just as God Promises in His New Covenant. We don't have to go to a man made shrine of worship to hear God's Word, HE has made it available to us all. HIS Temple is in our mind. We don't need to find some random preacher, because God has already supplied us with Preachers, from Moses to the Prophets, to Peter, and Paul and James, And our High Priest, The Lord's Christ, Jesus, the Unblemished Lamb of God.
We have all the examples of "Unbelief" God has written for our admonition, and all those examples of "Faith" God also had written for our admonition.
All we need now is "Belief/Faith".
Great topic!
A
Arial
Guest
That is fine, but to me something in the place of something else is a substitution.
I reject this. LOL
No, he was not being punished by God. He had done nothing to be punished for. Our sins were being punished in Him by proxy. Substitution. He faced death and He conquered it. Did He actually come face to face with God's wrath? I tend to think not, but I do not know what happened while Jesus was in the tomb. Other than a blip of information given in I believe Jude, which I do not fully understand.
T
TrevorL
Guest
Greetings again Arial,
I feel that the subject is too important and too holy for us to stand at the foot of the cross and squabble among ourselves, instead of beholding Jesus Christ and him crucified and all that has been revealed in him. One of my favourite passages is John 12:20-41 and this includes Isaiah 53:1 and Isaiah 6:9-10 and many other interesting details and features, but at the heart of this is the following:
John 12:27–33 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Two weeks ago one of our sister meetings in our region had its anniversary study weekend on the subject of the Atonement or Reconciliation and because the relatively young speaker from Sydney NSW was in a covid lockdown could not attend, and for the first time to my knowledge the meeting was able to share their talks with our meeting and others via you-tube. I liked his overview and the four sections of his study and hopefully we could agree with this in general. He showed this in a graphical form, but essentially he stated that the whole subject was based upon the Love of God, the Father and the end result "Reconciled us to Himself". The four topics that he considered that connects these two concepts and achieves this result was broken up into four topics:
1. Bad News: Old Needs to Pass Away
2. Good News: God Declared Right
3. Great News: Made Righteous in Him
4. Amazing News: The Power of His Resurrection
I withheld this response until I had listened to the first three parts, in the hope that I could glean a simple clear overview, but there was too much detail and too many aspects to give a final succinct statement. Instead I would like to add two passages that I like concerning this subject.
Psalm 85:10 (KJV): Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Kind regards
Trevor
I understand "for us" is speaking on our behalf, not instead of us.
Over many years I have considered within my own fellowship a range of opinions, including extremes on either end of the spectrum, and I am happy with my present perspective. Even here, I doubt that you would be happy with any of these as our basis in other doctrines is different. Unless we resolved some of these first then we would not progress on the subject of the Atonement or reconciliation, or in other words, what is the meaning of the Cross and what has it achieved.
I feel that the subject is too important and too holy for us to stand at the foot of the cross and squabble among ourselves, instead of beholding Jesus Christ and him crucified and all that has been revealed in him. One of my favourite passages is John 12:20-41 and this includes Isaiah 53:1 and Isaiah 6:9-10 and many other interesting details and features, but at the heart of this is the following:
John 12:27–33 (KJV): 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Two weeks ago one of our sister meetings in our region had its anniversary study weekend on the subject of the Atonement or Reconciliation and because the relatively young speaker from Sydney NSW was in a covid lockdown could not attend, and for the first time to my knowledge the meeting was able to share their talks with our meeting and others via you-tube. I liked his overview and the four sections of his study and hopefully we could agree with this in general. He showed this in a graphical form, but essentially he stated that the whole subject was based upon the Love of God, the Father and the end result "Reconciled us to Himself". The four topics that he considered that connects these two concepts and achieves this result was broken up into four topics:
1. Bad News: Old Needs to Pass Away
2. Good News: God Declared Right
3. Great News: Made Righteous in Him
4. Amazing News: The Power of His Resurrection
I withheld this response until I had listened to the first three parts, in the hope that I could glean a simple clear overview, but there was too much detail and too many aspects to give a final succinct statement. Instead I would like to add two passages that I like concerning this subject.
Psalm 85:10 (KJV): Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Kind regards
Trevor
A
Arial
Guest
I hope it did not seem like I was squabbling.
One thing I have learned on theology forums and even those that are Christian only, is how subtle but tenacious our fallen human nature fights to remain alive and well! The more someone presents a view that is different than ours, or tries to explain it, the more entrenched and rigid the other person becomes in what we believe is right and truth. Back and forth, and so on and so on. I fall into this trap often as I attempt to explain myself and why I believe what I do, meeting this resistance which seem like a refusal to even hear what I say. To discount it without bothering to hear. Which, I have come to realize, is exactly how the other person sees me. It becomes then, only bickering and right fighting, the glory of God, the exhalting of Christ, forgotten, banished to the background. I will state my beliefs and how and why I have come to that belief, and I have a tendency to be aggressive about it, need to put a lid on it. However, I have also discovered something else from being on forums.
Though there is of course such a thing as absolute, non negotiable truth, since there is God, that truth does probably not need to be rigidly in a universal way, perceived. And I have discovered that the line between negotiable and non-negotiable is drawn by God, and in our hearts, not by us and with our words or understanding. Non-negotiable is that Jesus is the only way of reconciliation between man and God. That this reconciliation came about through His life and at the cross, verified by His resurrection and ascension, and is given to us by the wonderful grace of God through faith. And that faith that has the power to unite us with Christ is as individual as an individual, in the way that it resides in our hearts and minds, a place into which, only God can see. That whatever saving faith we have, is given to us by God, in whatever way it manifests in our life or words or thoughts, and in whatever measure.
R
rstrats
Guest
Arial,
re: "The cross has stood as representative of Christianity for centuries. It graces our sanctuaries, stands atop our church buildings, bold and unmistakable against the sky lines, it appears in unlikely places in desolate deserts or a hilltop in the wide open prairie where Easter sunrise services are held. Many Christians wear a cross around their neck close to their heart. Countless hymns are sung about the cross."
I wonder if the method of execution had been the electric chair, would churches have electric chairs on the top of their steeples, with people wearing electric chair jewelry around their necks, and be making the sign of the electric chair and be singing songs about the electric chair?
re: "The cross has stood as representative of Christianity for centuries. It graces our sanctuaries, stands atop our church buildings, bold and unmistakable against the sky lines, it appears in unlikely places in desolate deserts or a hilltop in the wide open prairie where Easter sunrise services are held. Many Christians wear a cross around their neck close to their heart. Countless hymns are sung about the cross."
I wonder if the method of execution had been the electric chair, would churches have electric chairs on the top of their steeples, with people wearing electric chair jewelry around their necks, and be making the sign of the electric chair and be singing songs about the electric chair?
A
Arial
Guest
Though I hate the expression: It is what it is. Or it was what it was. It happened when it did, the way it did, and why it did, all under the sovereign hand of God. I find no room for such ponderings, but to each his own. I was writing about what is, not what might have been. But thanks for popping in, I appreciate it and that is not sarcasm.
R
rstrats
Guest
It was just a thought that popped into my head when I read your OP. Needed to get it out of there to make room for more deep thoughts.
A
Arial
Guest
Do you feel better now? Yeah sometimes that happens to me too.
