C
chrysostom
Guest
Atonement is an old testament word.
Replaced by redemption in the new testament.
Replaced by redemption in the new testament.
B
Bladerunner
Guest
T
TrevorL
Guest
Greetings Grace Accepted,
I would like to suggest that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected as our representative, and it is necessary to have a correct view of many teachings, such as the mortality of man, and that Jesus was a man, the Son of God, and the Son of Man, that is a Son of Adam and partook of his fallen nature. A proper understanding of this subject needs to consider such important Scripture as Romans 1:1-4, 16-17, 3:19-31, 8:3, Hebrews 2:14.
Kind regards
Trevor
No, this is substitution. God is righteous and does not punish the innocent and allow the wicked to go free.
There is no cosmic death of Satan.
Yes, but it is based on what he actually was, and what he actually accomplished 1 Peter 2:18-25.
I would like to suggest that Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected as our representative, and it is necessary to have a correct view of many teachings, such as the mortality of man, and that Jesus was a man, the Son of God, and the Son of Man, that is a Son of Adam and partook of his fallen nature. A proper understanding of this subject needs to consider such important Scripture as Romans 1:1-4, 16-17, 3:19-31, 8:3, Hebrews 2:14.
Kind regards
Trevor
P
patrick jane
Guest
Whatever do you mean that there is "no cosmic death" of satan? Where in God's name do you find that? Not only "where" did you find that but what exactly do you mean by it?
T
TrevorL
Guest
Greetings patrick jane,
Kind regards
Trevor
I was simply rejecting what Grace Accepted stated, that somehow the Atonement has something to do with the cosmic death of Satan.
I did not originally add the two references, Luke 10:18 and John 12:31, and possibly I can half understand what Grace Accepted was claiming, but I understand these two references need to be understood by means of Romans 8:3 and Hebrews 2:14. My aim in posting was not to enter into a full discussion on The Atonement as it is a large subject. I was mainly briefly adding another possibility. I was introduced to a form of substitution by my grandfather when I saw him on his farm for the last time when I was 16 and to some extent this awakened my interest, but I did not accept his view, then and now. He may have carried over some of this from his Methodist background, and he was attending University to become a Methodist Minister, when he encountered one of the members in my fellowship. He became a school teacher instead.
Kind regards
Trevor
P
patrick jane
Guest
The entity known as satan will be in the bottemless pit for eternity.
T
TrevorL
Guest
Greetings patrick jane,
I was a bit worried that you would caution or ban me when I spoke against substitution, but it seems that you will tolerate a range of opinions, but I will attempt to be a bit cautious with this new forum as you and the principals most probably have reasonably strong opinions.
Kind regards
Trevor
Like many subjects that are discussed on forums, there would be a wide range of opinions on the Devil or Satan, (eg when or how did he fall from heaven?, will he continue to go or fall deeper into the bottomless pit?, what sort of warfare did he have in heaven Revelation 12?) as well as many more opinions on the Atonement than has been mentioned already in this thread. Historically in my fellowship there has been a wide range of views, with the ebb and flow of people and ideas, and I have experienced some of these expositions and explanations. One of my mates has had discussions with a few members in another Australian State. I suggested that I give the number "one" for one extreme view, and the number "ten" for another extreme view, possibly opposite view, both of which we have experienced, and then suggested the normal view with some minor variations as "four to six" which I consider to be held by the vast majority in my fellowship. I asked what number he would give to those he had discussion with and he surprised me by saying that their view was out of range, possibly "twelve".
I was a bit worried that you would caution or ban me when I spoke against substitution, but it seems that you will tolerate a range of opinions, but I will attempt to be a bit cautious with this new forum as you and the principals most probably have reasonably strong opinions.
Kind regards
Trevor
P
patrick jane
Guest
Oh no, @TrevorL you are free to believe anything and speak against me at any time. I had a thing at the old forum about flat earth, but even then folks could disagree completely and argue against it. I have no problem with anti trinity people, muslims, mormons are anyone etc.
Please don't fear me here and I won't be moderating really. Thank you @TrevorL
S
Studyman
Guest
Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
It seems Ananias should have humbled himself, or as Paul teaches "Yielded Himself" to the God of the bible so as to "Appease an Angry God". Obviously he didn't "Believe" the God of Abraham but was calling HIM Lord, anyway. Isn't this the very same thing that happened to the "Examples of Unbelief" God gave to us?
Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
What would you say, according to Scriptures, was the difference between Zacharias and Simeon, and the Pharisees? Wouldn't it be right to teach that Zacharias and Simeon had Faith, but the mainstream preachers of his time did not?
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
I understand how prevalent and popular the religious philosophy, that Jesus "Freed us" from His Tyrant, angry Father is. But I know Jesus did not even imply such a thing. And following a doctrine such as this makes us "Judges" of God and His Word. Not Servants, who are to "be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." At least this is what the Holy Scriptures seem to teach.
Yes, Ananias showed this Body of Christ that to reject or belittle God or His Commandments, does indeed Anger Him. Had this person showed a little respect and humility towards God's definition of honesty, they might not have been "overthrown" as those many "Examples of unbelief" God had written as examples for us were.
Caleb, Joshua, Gideon, Rehab, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna the Wise men, and on and on, including the Man Jesus, were all committed to the "Religion of God", you call Judaism, also said to be "The Gospel of Christ". To say Jesus didn't walk in, or promote the "Religion of God" may be a popular doctrine in the religions of this world Jesus warned of, but it isn't an accurate representation of what Jesus actually taught, in my view.
Those mainstream religions of Jesus time preach that Salvation is only granted to those who follow their specific religious Sect.. As Jesus Himself told us.
Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Perhaps if they had been humble servants like Zacharias in Luke, who, like any good son, walked to please their Father, they would have known HIS Son when HE came, like Zacharias did.
Jesus said that God's is angry and at some point His wrath will be known.
Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Who will be offended, who is being transgressed, if it isn't the Father of the Lord's Christ, The "Angry God" of the OT according to many.
It is much simpler than this it seems, according to the Word's of Christ. The "Pious Jews" simply rejected God's Commandments and made their own. This is why they were separated from God and didn't know Jesus. Whereas Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, respected the God of Abraham and "Walked" in His Ways, not their own, or the religions of the land they were born into. Like Abraham did.
To have a choice, we must be given a choice. Adam and Eve where placed in a Garden God built, where HE also placed satan, the "other religious voice" in the garden with them. He had HIS Word, and the "other religious voice" to choose between. Just like the Holy Scriptures say.
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
And again;
Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. ********** But they said, We will not walk therein.
We just need to make sure this question is answered by following the instructions of the Christ. "Man shall live by Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God". And not by the Prophesied "Other voice" in the garden that God placed us in, that His Son warned so many times about.
T
TrevorL
Guest
Greetings patrick jane,
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate the tolerance of a wide range of opinions, and from Sissy and Mr E as well. Nevertheless if I was the owner or moderator of a forum my ultimate aim would be to determine the Biblical Truth of each subject raised, and to quash endless repetition and dismiss empty threads or shallow threads. Ultimately this forum should end up as pure and white and substantial as the White Horse, where people could come and find the Truth, and the more threads that represent this in the final outcome of the discussion the better. I hope that some of the threads do not end up with constant repetition. One moderator on another forum closed a thread which was very ordered and sequential when most of the subject was covered only once, and it then allowed the thread to be available for reference and resolution.
Kind regards
Trevor
M
Mr E
Guest
We appreciate that feedback TrevorL. We've taken on the old adage- You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. Our hope is that any who come here find that we focus on the things that are good, beautiful and true. Jesus said- If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.
And in the spirit of that white horse, with thousands more in his train, we do want this place to be as you've expressed here. Time will measure how well we do. It's why we do the things we do. It's why we encourage good conversation, and why we discourage the snippy snide insults and declarations of all kinds that have no place in good conversation.
I think most folks are more willing to accept what you believe, if they can accept how you behave. When folks act out and lash out and insist on 'their way or the highway' -we point them in the direction of the highway. We don't know how else to handle that.
S
Studyman
Guest
The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.
Important theological concepts about penal substitution depend on the doctrine of the Trinity. Those who believe that Jesus was himself God, in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, believe that God took the punishment upon himself rather than putting it on someone else. In other words, the doctrine of union with Christ affirms that by taking the punishment upon himself Jesus fulfills the demands of justice not for an unrelated third party but for those identified with him. If, in the penal substitution understanding of the atonement, the death of Christ deals with sin and injustice, his resurrection is the renewal and restoration of righteousness.
Some other atonement theories are the ransom theory, which says that Christ's death represents the cosmic defeat of the devil to whom a ransom had to be paid, c.q. Christ Victor theory, the rescue of humanity from the power of sin and death, a view popularized by Gustaf Aulén; and exemplary theory, associated with Peter Abelard and Hastings Rashdall, which argues that the cross had its effect on human beings, by setting forth a supreme example of godliness which we must follow.
Penal substitution - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!www.dictionary.com
Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong.
Propitiation is the noun form of the verb propitiate, meaning to appease or gain the favor of.
Close synonyms of propitiation are conciliation and appeasement. Like those words, propitiation is commonly used in a religious context. It’s especially used in Christianity to refer to the act of propitiation that Christians believe Jesus made to atone for sin—or to the atonement that Christians believe they should make to God.
Example: Without propitiation, there can be no redemption.
Interesting post PJ.
In the Law and Prophets, (Leviticus 16 and 23) there is a Holy Day called "Day (AKA Feast) of Atonement". In this "shadow" of things to come, there was a "Lot" given between two goats.
7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
The first goat on which the Lord's Lot fell, was offered as a sin offering for the people. While the 2nd Goat was released.
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
This represents the Son's of God, including the Christ, and satan. The Christ, on which the Lord's Lot fell, after being offered for the sins of the world, has been with the Father in heaven (Spiritual place) reconciling His people to God.
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
Jesus is alone in heaven with the Father. No other man is with Him. "Christ alone has immortality", "No man has seen God, but the Christ" etc.. When Jesus has finished the reconciliation process, HE will "Come out" or return from the "Holy Place" and take the Live Goat, and place the sins of the World back where they belong..
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man (Jesus,KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.) into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
These Feasts were important to Jesus and Paul. Paul called them "shadows of things yet to come". This world has pretty much forgotten them, just as the religions of Paul's time had forgotten them. Not Christmas, or Easter or Halloween, these man made traditions are still very popular in the religions of this world.
But Paul warned those Faithful Colossians;
Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
He knew those following God and walking as Jesus walked, would face ridicule and Judgment, especially if they didn't regard the popular religious traditions of men the religions of his world promoted.
He told them not to let any man judge them for their faithfulness.
Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
These "Feasts of the Lord", which begin, doesn't end, with Passover, are shadows of the Salvation plan of the God of the Bible. "Atonement" is a Sabbath, and a "day to afflict our souls" in remembrance of what His People are all waiting for. That is, the Return of the Christ, who will place the sins of the world on the head of its father, where they belong.
Paul said these things were written for my admonition.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Peter confirms this in my view.
2 Pet. 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Great Thread PJ. Great discussion.