The Atonement

[patrick jane]

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.

Important theological concepts about penal substitution depend on the doctrine of the Trinity. Those who believe that Jesus was himself God, in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, believe that God took the punishment upon himself rather than putting it on someone else. In other words, the doctrine of union with Christ affirms that by taking the punishment upon himself Jesus fulfills the demands of justice not for an unrelated third party but for those identified with him. If, in the penal substitution understanding of the atonement, the death of Christ deals with sin and injustice, his resurrection is the renewal and restoration of righteousness.

Some other atonement theories are the ransom theory, which says that Christ's death represents the cosmic defeat of the devil to whom a ransom had to be paid, c.q. Christ Victor theory, the rescue of humanity from the power of sin and death, a view popularized by Gustaf Aulén; and exemplary theory, associated with Peter Abelard and Hastings Rashdall, which argues that the cross had its effect on human beings, by setting forth a supreme example of godliness which we must follow.

Penal substitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong.

Propitiation is the noun form of the verb propitiate, meaning to appease or gain the favor of.

Close synonyms of propitiation are conciliation and appeasement. Like those words, propitiation is commonly used in a religious context. It’s especially used in Christianity to refer to the act of propitiation that Christians believe Jesus made to atone for sin—or to the atonement that Christians believe they should make to God.

Example: Without propitiation, there can be no redemption.

 

[Bladerunner]

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.

Important theological concepts about penal substitution depend on the doctrine of the Trinity. Those who believe that Jesus was himself God, in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, believe that God took the punishment upon himself rather than putting it on someone else. In other words, the doctrine of union with Christ affirms that by taking the punishment upon himself Jesus fulfills the demands of justice not for an unrelated third party but for those identified with him. If, in the penal substitution understanding of the atonement, the death of Christ deals with sin and injustice, his resurrection is the renewal and restoration of righteousness.

Some other atonement theories are the ransom theory, which says that Christ's death represents the cosmic defeat of the devil to whom a ransom had to be paid, c.q. Christ Victor theory, the rescue of humanity from the power of sin and death, a view popularized by Gustaf Aulén; and exemplary theory, associated with Peter Abelard and Hastings Rashdall, which argues that the cross had its effect on human beings, by setting forth a supreme example of godliness which we must follow.

Penal substitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong.

Propitiation is the noun form of the verb propitiate, meaning to appease or gain the favor of.

Close synonyms of propitiation are conciliation and appeasement. Like those words, propitiation is commonly used in a religious context. It’s especially used in Christianity to refer to the act of propitiation that Christians believe Jesus made to atone for sin—or to the atonement that Christians believe they should make to God.

Example: Without propitiation, there can be no redemption.

I might add ??.. that the resurrection of Jesus Christ also represents the victory over Death that will come to all who believe in HIM.....Blade

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, a great deal of it is perspective. I too believe that Jesus is God, but as Son of man He becomes out redeemer, the One who makes atonement for us, and the faith that joins us to Him is that complete trust in Him and only Him, and to the uttermost, to save us through the work that He did as one of us. That perfect obedience that we as sinners cannot ever accomplish, it is already too late by the time we tell our first lie, so to speak. It is faith (belief and trust) in the atonement that binds us to Him body soul and spirit. And then the Holy Spirit begins to teach us the spiritual truths of the Bible, through that word, as He brings it alive in our hearts and minds. So, neither do I separate God and Jesus, but the way to God is by being in Christ. I maybe didn't say it very well. It wouldn't be the first time!

Once as I was reading John 10, the entire chapter, it struck me that these sheep and that flock, mixed with all the other flocks belonging to other shepherds (this was the custom, to bring all the flocks in at night, and mixing them together was not a problem, because the sheep in reality did know the voice of their shepherd and followed only them. It was as was normal a parable based on reality in the earthly realm.); it struck me that these sheep were specific individuals, God knows who they are (and I have other sheep not of this flock also), the ones God gives to Jesus. I have no problem with you view, it may be correct, I am simply unable to see it that way. To me the sheep, from my premise were always the sheep, even before the actual redemption took place in the person's heart. The new birth did not make us His flock, it is when we heard His voice and followed Him, and that the work of the Holy Spirit in us.

I do not know much about the Brethren, and I apologize for this. I do know that they as well as the anabaptist, and other denominations, were born out of the reformation. What is known as Reformed Theology, also Covenant theology holds to the most fundamental principles of the faith alone, scripture alone (as authority in church teaching), and includes what came to be known as the five points of Calvinism. I do not agree with infant baptism and on the fence about their eschatology and figure no one is right all the time about everything, the main thing is to be joined by grace, through faith, the Jesus, trusting in Him that is person and work alone saves us.

only two quick comments...1. I agree about Jesus and make a distinction in most cases, it was just in that one case I didn't make that distinction.

2. the Brethren are Anabaptist, so yes, you know us better than you think. Actually Mennonite comes out of the Brethren if that helps any, in fact there are still Old Order brethren (we are NOT) that appear to be Amish. Then you have much more progressive in which you would not be able to distinguish them from other more modern groups. The point is that we saw the reformation as not reformed enough...but that just makes us closer than other groups is the way I look at it. Maybe one day we can have a closer look at some of our disagreements.

I think everything else is amen...as to the sheep, I can't understand it as sheep belonging to another since we have the parable of the sheep and goats...but again, another discussion for another day...thanks for the great discussion.

 

[Grace Accepted]

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.

Important theological concepts about penal substitution depend on the doctrine of the Trinity. Those who believe that Jesus was himself God, in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, believe that God took the punishment upon himself rather than putting it on someone else. In other words, the doctrine of union with Christ affirms that by taking the punishment upon himself Jesus fulfills the demands of justice not for an unrelated third party but for those identified with him. If, in the penal substitution understanding of the atonement, the death of Christ deals with sin and injustice, his resurrection is the renewal and restoration of righteousness.

Some other atonement theories are the ransom theory, which says that Christ's death represents the cosmic defeat of the devil to whom a ransom had to be paid, c.q. Christ Victor theory, the rescue of humanity from the power of sin and death, a view popularized by Gustaf Aulén; and exemplary theory, associated with Peter Abelard and Hastings Rashdall, which argues that the cross had its effect on human beings, by setting forth a supreme example of godliness which we must follow.

Penal substitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong.

Propitiation is the noun form of the verb propitiate, meaning to appease or gain the favor of.

Close synonyms of propitiation are conciliation and appeasement. Like those words, propitiation is commonly used in a religious context. It’s especially used in Christianity to refer to the act of propitiation that Christians believe Jesus made to atone for sin—or to the atonement that Christians believe they should make to God.

Example: Without propitiation, there can be no redemption.

Humans love to categorize things. All of these categories or theories are simply parts of the whole. Of course, Christ's atonement is useless unless we open up the package and take it out and experience it through faith.

 

[Arial]

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.

Important theological concepts about penal substitution depend on the doctrine of the Trinity. Those who believe that Jesus was himself God, in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, believe that God took the punishment upon himself rather than putting it on someone else. In other words, the doctrine of union with Christ affirms that by taking the punishment upon himself Jesus fulfills the demands of justice not for an unrelated third party but for those identified with him. If, in the penal substitution understanding of the atonement, the death of Christ deals with sin and injustice, his resurrection is the renewal and restoration of righteousness.

Some other atonement theories are the ransom theory, which says that Christ's death represents the cosmic defeat of the devil to whom a ransom had to be paid, c.q. Christ Victor theory, the rescue of humanity from the power of sin and death, a view popularized by Gustaf Aulén; and exemplary theory, associated with Peter Abelard and Hastings Rashdall, which argues that the cross had its effect on human beings, by setting forth a supreme example of godliness which we must follow.

Penal substitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong.

Propitiation is the noun form of the verb propitiate, meaning to appease or gain the favor of.

Close synonyms of propitiation are conciliation and appeasement. Like those words, propitiation is commonly used in a religious context. It’s especially used in Christianity to refer to the act of propitiation that Christians believe Jesus made to atone for sin—or to the atonement that Christians believe they should make to God.

Example: Without propitiation, there can be no redemption.

Well said PJ. It is also sometimes said that Jesus pays God for our sins in blood. Or that that is what Christianity teaches. And often the understanding of the atonement, put simply, Jesus died for my sins, is not looked into beyond that statement. Which in my opinion is adequate unto salvation, because the person has put their trust in Jesus for salvation (assuming that they truly have.) I have come to see it in this way: that the blood shed by Jesus is the blood of the new covenant. "Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness." That entrance into the new covenant is by grace and through faith (full trust) in the person and work of Jesus is to be sufficient to save to the uttermost. That it was God's justice against sin that was satisfied by Jesus. IOW sin met its just penalty in Jesus, which is death. He was raised from the dead, because He was truly righteous and death could not hold Him. Thus He conquered death for the believer. He ascended back to the Father as our High Priest, the curtain to the holy of holies removed so that all believers now have personal communion and fellowship with God. We can come boldly before His throne of grace. In this He conquered/solved the problem of our indwelling sin. Because He became our substitute, the believer dies with Him and is raised to life with Him, and His righteousness is counted as our own, just as our sinfulness was counted as though it were His, on the cross. In the atonement, in my view, it is Justice that was satisfied, that those joined to Christ through faith, might receive mercy. Our sins are forgiven. The Holy Spirit indwells us, sealing us for the day when the corruptible puts on incorruption, and in the meantime, leading us to ever increasing righteousness.

 

[Grace Accepted]

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty for mankind's sins. Penal substitution derives from the idea that divine forgiveness must satisfy divine justice, that is, that God is not willing or able to simply forgive sin without first requiring a satisfaction for it. It states that God gave himself in the person of his Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for our sin.

Important theological concepts about penal substitution depend on the doctrine of the Trinity. Those who believe that Jesus was himself God, in line with the doctrine of the Trinity, believe that God took the punishment upon himself rather than putting it on someone else. In other words, the doctrine of union with Christ affirms that by taking the punishment upon himself Jesus fulfills the demands of justice not for an unrelated third party but for those identified with him. If, in the penal substitution understanding of the atonement, the death of Christ deals with sin and injustice, his resurrection is the renewal and restoration of righteousness.

Some other atonement theories are the ransom theory, which says that Christ's death represents the cosmic defeat of the devil to whom a ransom had to be paid, c.q. Christ Victor theory, the rescue of humanity from the power of sin and death, a view popularized by Gustaf Aulén; and exemplary theory, associated with Peter Abelard and Hastings Rashdall, which argues that the cross had its effect on human beings, by setting forth a supreme example of godliness which we must follow.

Penal substitution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Propitiation is the act of gaining the favor of or making things right with someone, especially after having done something wrong.

Propitiation is the noun form of the verb propitiate, meaning to appease or gain the favor of.

Close synonyms of propitiation are conciliation and appeasement. Like those words, propitiation is commonly used in a religious context. It’s especially used in Christianity to refer to the act of propitiation that Christians believe Jesus made to atone for sin—or to the atonement that Christians believe they should make to God.

Example: Without propitiation, there can be no redemption.

Penal substitution: Did Christ take our place and receive our penalty? Heck, yes!

Isaiah 53:6 - We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Ransom Theory: Did Christ Death do more that just represent the cosmic death of Satan? Heck, Yes!
Luke 10:18 - “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
John 12:31 - Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

Exemplary Theory: Is Jesus to be our example in all things? Heck, Yes!

Ephesians 5:1,2 - Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.


But the Payment for our sins comes first. Golry To God!

 

[Arial]

only two quick comments...1. I agree about Jesus and make a distinction in most cases, it was just in that one case I didn't make that distinction.

Another quick comment from me to clarify what I said. I think I agree with you in this statement as applying to what I meant also. Jesus as Son of man, that is as one of us, is an addition, not a subtraction. The Son is God and was with God always, but He became, for the purposes of redemption, also a man, without losing any of His deity. But another topic, another day.

 

[patrick jane]

Another quick comment from me to clarify what I said. I think I agree with you in this statement as applying to what I meant also. Jesus as Son of man, that is as one of us, is an addition, not a subtraction. The Son is God and was with God always, but He became, for the purposes of redemption, also a man, without losing any of His deity. But another topic, another day.

@Arial and @Grace Accepted I just listened to a sermon on Isaiah 53, actually it is verse by verse just a few at a time and it's ongoing. I have listened to most all of them starting with chapter 1. Last night he talked a lot about God's death, burial and resurrection and I might post them all here but they are on both of my other forums.

I like the man and consider him my pastor but at times he is guilty of oversimplifying or slightly repetitious to make sure everyone "gets it."

 

[Mattathias]

@Arial and @Grace Accepted I just listened to a sermon on Isaiah 53, actually it is verse by verse just a few at a time and it's ongoing. I have listened to most all of them starting with chapter 1. Last night he talked a lot about God's death, burial and resurrection and I might post them all here but they are on both of my other forums.

I like the man and consider him my pastor but at times he is guilty of oversimplifying or slightly repetitious to make sure everyone "gets it."

God’s death

I would urge / encourage people to meditate on that.

 

[Grace Accepted]

God’s death

I would urge / encourage people to meditate on that.

Absolutely! It is so amazing that God would condescend to take our death and bear it for us. It is such a demonstration of pure unadutrated agape love, so far above our abilities and so glorious and yet it is an example for us that God the Son would lay down His glory with the Father to become a servant in the likeness of fallen man. To adopt The Father as His God in order to be exactly like us and never sin while bearing our guilt and shame onto what would be eternal death for us. WOW! Paul urges us to have the same mindset as Christ Jesus


Note: Please remember the axioms that this discussion is taking place. If you have a problem with any of those, start a thread where you can publish your concerns. In this thread, the Trinity is a given and as long as you abide by the stipulations of my thread I have no problem with your input as to the atonement itself.

Thank you for helping make this forum a better place.

 

[Grace Accepted]

The atonement is the main foundational doctrine of Christianity. It is the doctrine that set the world on fire and changed the entire course of human history. Up until that point at which Christ explained it on the road to Emaus and subsequently empowered the apostles at Pentecost and appointed Paul to bring it to the Gentiles, the road to redemption in every religion was based on the appeasement of an angry god or gods.

If you kept them happy you were OK, but if you angered them--lookout! Most gods were also very capricious and prone to fits of rage for even just a spot of bother. Even the religion of God at the time, Judaism, was so corrupted that it portrayed God as a bean-counting accountant using the carrot and stick method to bludgeon people into better behavior. Unless you were rich, you were told that God did not favor you and you would most likely miss the opportunity to reside in Abrahams Bosom. Misery was everywhere along with gross hopelessness. Many simply gave up and figured that a life of crime and debauchery was all they could hope to expect as a reward.

The pious Jews of the day. The vaunted monotheistic moralists ground the face of the poor into the muck of guilt. The "religious leaders" were as bad or worse than today's modern televangelists. They offered only scorn, condemnation, guilt, and usury to the masses.

Humanity was doomed and going down fast. Sin had cut us off from God with no way for us to reconnect without violating our free Will.

God could have turned us all into instinctual creatures programmed to love and obey Him but God desired creatures who loved him by their own choice.

So what was God's plan to save mankind without violating his own law?

How could he make us alive without our permission and how could we give him permission; being dead to him?

How could The Holy Spirit enter a sinful man?

How much of salvation through atonement is God's doing and how much is our doing?

 

[razzelflabben]

How much of salvation through atonement is God's doing and how much is our doing?

All of salvation is through God's atonement...all we do is accept it as ours. Like accepting a gift from someone, we didn't work for that gift, we don't do anything to earn it, it is just a gift, but if we don't accept it, it sits unopened and doesn't do anyone any good.