The Atonement

[Grace Accepted]

The atonement is the main foundational doctrine of Christianity. It is the doctrine that set the world on fire and changed the entire course of human history. Up until that point at which Christ explained it on the road to Emaus and subsequently empowered the apostles at Pentecost and appointed Paul to bring it to the Gentiles, the road to redemption in every religion was based on the appeasement of an angry god or gods.

If you kept them happy you were OK, but if you angered them--lookout! Most gods were also very capricious and prone to fits of rage for even just a spot of bother. Even the religion of God at the time, Judaism, was so corrupted that it portrayed God as a bean-counting accountant using the carrot and stick method to bludgeon people into better behavior. Unless you were rich, you were told that God did not favor you and you would most likely miss the opportunity to reside in Abrahams Bosom. Misery was everywhere along with gross hopelessness. Many simply gave up and figured that a life of crime and debauchery was all they could hope to expect as a reward.

The pious Jews of the day. The vaunted monotheistic moralists ground the face of the poor into the muck of guilt. The "religious leaders" were as bad or worse than today's modern televangelists. They offered only scorn, condemnation, guilt, and usury to the masses.

Humanity was doomed and going down fast. Sin had cut us off from God with no way for us to reconnect without violating our free Will.

God could have turned us all into instinctual creatures programmed to love and obey Him but God desired creatures who loved him by their own choice.

So what was God's plan to save mankind without violating his own law?

How could he make us alive without our permission and how could we give him permission; being dead to him?

How could The Holy Spirit enter a sinful man?

 

[patrick jane]

What Is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?​

One of the ministries in which God the Holy Spirit has in the life of the believer is known as the “indwelling.” From Scripture, we learn a number of important things about this ministry.

The Holy Spirit indwells the believer the moment that a person trusts Jesus Christ as their Savior. Indeed, a person cannot be a Christian without the Holy Spirit indwelling them. The Bible makes this clear.

Thus, all believers in Jesus Christ are indwelt by the Spirit of God. Indeed, there is no such thing as a Christian without the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, the Lord has promised that the Spirit of God will dwell forever with believers. He will never leave those whom He indwells. He is forever with us.

Thus, this ministry of the Holy Spirit secures the relationship of the believer with the Lord. We can have confidence that God will be with us always through His Spirit who dwell inside of us.

While the Bible says this is what takes places, we cannot fully comprehend how this can be so. We believe these truths by faith.

What Is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: What Is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Grace Accepted]

Note: This is intended to be a discussion among Trinitarians about the nature of our atonement with God. All are welcome to comment but I ask that you refrain from debating the trinity or the deity of Christ within this thread because that is not what this thread is about.

Axioms: God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh to mankind, that is the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him and He is Emanuel. Paul was the Apostle appointed by God to carry the Gospel to the gentiles. This Gospel was given to him By Jesus Christ and his epistles are Jesus's words. They carry the full weight and authority as all other epistles and gospels.

Disclaimer: I am fully aware that there are those who vehemently disagree with trinitarian doctrine and abhor the above axioms but rather than derailing this thread, I would ask that you start your own threads to discuss your counterpoints of view. I have no authority to prevent you from doing this so I am asking as a courtesy.

Thank-you.

Questions to consider:

• Since Paul described us as having been dead in sins and trespasses and Jesus said we needed to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. When did we die to God? If we look at these two analogies it would seem that it must have been from birth since "born again" indicates a complete change from our natural state in which our first birth put us. Or did we die when we committed our first sin?
• Is there any good thing in our flesh? Something that has enough self-righteousness so that we can make a decision for Christ? Or did sin totally take away righteousness in our flesh?
• Would God reconnect us to Himself without our consent?
• Does the Holy Spirit start convicting a sinner before they are saved?
• What does it mean when God says through His Apostle, "Christ died for us while in we were still sinners?"
• What part do we play in the atonement?

Ok, that is just a taste of the questions the atonement can bring up. In order to avoid, long posts let's make a post for each question you wish to answer or comment on. For those who seriously want to look into this subject, let's not take the most marvelous gift God has given mankind and turn it into a scourge. As hard as it may be, if someone is abusive or insulting, trying to argue the axioms or perhaps we just took their post the wrong way and our ire has gotten up; simply do not answer them. Let's keep tea cups up, pinkies out, and hamster wheels silent.

God Bless all who truly seek Him.


@L.B.

 

[razzelflabben]

Note: This is intended to be a discussion among Trinitarians about the nature of our atonement with God. All are welcome to comment but I ask that you refrain from debating the trinity or the deity of Christ within this thread because that is not what this thread is about.

Axioms: God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God in the flesh to mankind, that is the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him and He is Emanuel. Paul was the Apostle appointed by God to carry the Gospel to the gentiles. This Gospel was given to him By Jesus Christ and his epistles are Jesus's words. They carry the full weight and authority as all other epistles and gospels.

Disclaimer: I am fully aware that there are those who vehemently disagree with trinitarian doctrine and abhor the above axioms but rather than derailing this thread, I would ask that you start your own threads to discuss your counterpoints of view. I have no authority to prevent you from doing this so I am asking as a courtesy.

Thank-you.

Questions to consider:

• Since Paul described us as having been dead in sins and trespasses and Jesus said we needed to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. When did we die to God? If we look at these two analogies it would seem that it must have been from birth since "born again" indicates a complete change from our natural state in which our first birth put us. Or did we die when we committed our first sin?

• if Jesus was without sin, what do you think this passage tells us about the answer to this question? Hebrews 5:8 Though He was God’s Son, He learned obedience through what He suffered. The last time I tried this discussion it didn't go well (not you grace) so I think we maybe at least on my part should give it a trial run by taking one question at a time.

  [*]Is there any good thing in our flesh? Something that has enough self-righteousness so that we can make a decision for Christ? Or did sin totally take away righteousness in our flesh?
  [*]Would God reconnect us to Himself without our consent?
  [*]Does the Holy Spirit start convicting a sinner before they are saved?
  [*]What does it mean when God says through His Apostle, "Christ died for us while in we were still sinners?"
  [*]What part do we play in the atonement?

Ok, that is just a taste of the questions the atonement can bring up. In order to avoid, long posts let's make a post for each question you wish to answer or comment on. For those who seriously want to look into this subject, let's not take the most marvelous gift God has given mankind and turn it into a scourge. As hard as it may be, if someone is abusive or insulting, trying to argue the axioms or perhaps we just took their post the wrong way and our ire has gotten up; simply do not answer them. Let's keep tea cups up, pinkies out, and hamster wheels silent.

God Bless all who truly seek Him.


@L.B.

 

[Grace Accepted]

• if Jesus was without sin, what do you think this passage tells us about the answer to this question? Hebrews 5:8 Though He was God’s Son, He learned obedience through what He suffered. The last time I tried this discussion it didn't go well (not you grace) so I think we maybe at least on my part should give it a trial run by taking one question at a time.

My thoughts have always been that Jesus being the son of God and being coeternal with him came to this earth and became human. Being human he needed to “learn“ what that was like since he never experienced it before. I don’t think it reflects disobedience on Christ’s part as much as coming down to this earth as a human and learning to obey when before He’d always been one with God.

I think this passage goes hand in glove with Philippians 2:7.

Those are my thoughts on this passage. Of course, being human I am fallible

 

[razzelflabben]

My thoughts have always been that Jesus being the son of God and being coeternal with him came to this earth and became human. Being human he needed to “learn“ what that was like since he never experienced it before. I don’t think it reflects disobedience on Christ’s part as much as coming down to this earth as a human and learning to obey when before He’d always been one with God.

I think this passage goes hand in glove with Philippians 2:7.

Those are my thoughts on this passage. Of course, being human I am fallible

but...wouldn't that suggest that we are condemned to sin after we first sin? I have heard people argue that we are sinners for the very reason that we are human...iow's being human is sin. It appears to me that the Heb. passage and a few others suggest that we are only condemned sinners when we commit our first sin. What say you?

 

[razzelflabben]

@Grace Accepted let me expand on my thinking here...how can we claim that being human is sin when Jesus was human and without sin? How can we claim we are born sinning if Jesus had to learn what sinning was in the flesh and still was without sin? How can we say we are sinning when we have no understanding of the law when it is the law that teaches us what sin is and isn't?

 

[Grace Accepted]

but...wouldn't that suggest that we are condemned to sin after we first sin? I have heard people argue that we are sinners for the very reason that we are human...iow's being human is sin. It appears to me that the Heb. passage and a few others suggest that we are only condemned sinners when we commit our first sin. What say you?

I would agree, however I think our fallen nature guarantees we will commit that first sin because that is what it does.

However, wouldn’t that make abotionists the greatest agents of salvation ever?

 

[Grace Accepted]

@Grace Accepted let me expand on my thinking here...how can we claim that being human is sin when Jesus was human and without sin? How can we claim we are born sinning if Jesus had to learn what sinning was in the flesh and still was without sin? How can we say we are sinning when we have no understanding of the law when it is the law that teaches us what sin is and isn't?

All very valid points. I think you have given me much to think about.

 

[razzelflabben]

I would agree, however I think our fallen nature guarantees we will commit that first sin because that is what it does.

I would argue that we are taught to sin from before we are born. Consider how a baby communicates that they need something...it's all about self and we cater to that (for good reason) reinforcing the self centered position of pride.

However, wouldn’t that make abotionists the greatest agents of salvation ever?

think about all the blessings that the abortionist is stealing not only from the unborn children but from the world and God who wants to give those gifts to His children. Salvation is so much more than just going to heaven, it's about LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANT! It's about finding Christ in the midst of the world. Look at the beatitudes and what it says about who is and is not blessed. I could buy your argument here if it wasn't for all that God wants to do between the moment of our spiritual birth and the moment of our arrival in heaven. It is the in-between that causes me to throw out this argument you present as flat out missing the point of God.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Grace Accepted]

I would argue that we are taught to sin from before we are born. Consider how a baby communicates that they need something...it's all about self and we cater to that (for good reason) reinforcing the self centered position of pride. think about all the blessings that the abortionist is stealing not only from the unborn children but from the world and God who wants to give those gifts to His children. Salvation is so much more than just going to heaven, it's about LIFE and LIFE ABUNDANT! It's about finding Christ in the midst of the world. Look at the beatitudes and what it says about who is and is not blessed. I could buy your argument here if it wasn't for all that God wants to do between the moment of our spiritual birth and the moment of our arrival in heaven. It is the in-between that causes me to throw out this argument you present as flat out missing the point of God.

[/QUOTE]
Perhaps God's judgment is not what we think. Maybe he looks down upon men and sees them without knowledge of Him or his law. Instead of getting mad, He pays for all of their transgressions and gives them spiritual life so that they then can make an informed choice. Enter the Ark of safety (Jesus Christ) or remain outside in the flood of destruction that is coming.

This would jibe with what Jesus said the basis of the verdict that is rendered for each person.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Does this make sense to you?

 

[razzelflabben]

Perhaps God's judgment is not what we think. Maybe he looks down upon men and sees them without knowledge of Him or his law. Instead of getting mad, He pays for all of their transgressions and gives them spiritual life so that they then can make an informed choice. Enter the Ark of safety (Jesus Christ) or remain outside in the flood of destruction that is coming.

This would jibe with what Jesus said the basis of the verdict that is rendered for each person.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Does this make sense to you?
[/QUOTE]
absolutely...I so love the atonement...and you are right, the main thing is Loving Him unto salvation. And Yes, we love darkness because our deed are evil. Look at what I am saying this way. Have you ever thought about why you like the foods you do? Part of it is taste, but part of it is what you are familiar with. I think sin is the same thing, we are taught sin and even to hide our own sin...but we also like it because the flesh feels the sin as pleasure for a moment anyway. It is only later that it bothers us, when we experience the fruit of sin.