My Lord and My God

[shroom]

here are some more facts

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God

Jesus Christ The Only Wise God It is argued by some, that verses in the Bible, like John 17:3, where the Father is called, “The only True God”; and Romans 16:27, where the Father is called, “God only wise”; that Jesus Christ is not “God” (ὁ θεὸς), because in these passages, the Father is...

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Isaiah 48 and The Holy Trinity

Isaiah 48 and The Holy Trinity “Draw near to Me, hearken to this; in the beginning I did not speak in secret, from the time it was, there was I, and now, the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit” – verse 16 The Hebrew is very interesting here. What does “הֱיוֹתָהּ” (to be her) refer to? This...

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1 Corinthians 8:6 and The Holy Trinity

1 Corinthians 8:6 and The Holy Trinity “But to us one God, the Father, of Whom all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom all things, and we by Him. And one Holy Spirit, in Whom all things and we in Him” (Original Letter by The Apostle Paul) The words, “καὶ ἐν πνεῦμα ἅγιον...

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I’ve seen your work. I don’t agree. I believe the Bible is very clear that God is the Father alone, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God’s human Messiah.

 

[ICHTHUS]

I’ve seen your work. I don’t agree. I believe the Bible is very clear that God is the Father alone, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God’s human Messiah.

you mean that you WANT to believe that it says that? Even the Jehovah's Witnesses, like you, deny that Jesus Christ is GOD, translate Isaiah 9:6, "His name (Jesus Christ) will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God" https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/9/

 

[ICHTHUS]

I’ve seen your work. I don’t agree. I believe the Bible is very clear that God is the Father alone, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God’s human Messiah.

here is a simple question for you. Who Created the heavens and the earth?

 

[shroom]

you mean that you WANT to believe that it says that?

It does say that. Unequivocally.

Even the Jehovah's Witnesses, like you, deny that Jesus Christ is GOD, translate Isaiah 9:6, "His name (Jesus Christ) will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God" https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/9/

That’s right. It does not have to be an uppercase ‘G’. Or it can be translated ’mighty hero’.

The JWs believe Jesus is Michael the archangel. I believe he is a man. The “second man”, the “last Adam”. God’s Messiah.

 

[shroom]

here is a simple question for you. Who Created the heavens and the earth?

God (Gen 1:1).

Are you going to bring up Col 1:16?

 

[ICHTHUS]

That’s right. It does not have to be an uppercase ‘G’. Or it can be translated ’mighty hero’.

would you also translate the exact same Hebrew in Isaiah 10:21, "The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God (êl Gibbôr)", as "mighty hero"? I know not of a single objection of translating "’êl Gibbôr", in 10:21, as "Mighty God". Or, Jeremiah 32:18, "Thou exercisest kindness unto the thousandth generation, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers unto the bosom of their children after them; thou art the Great, the Mighty God (êl Gibbôr), the Lord of hosts is his name". But, when it is used for Jesus Christ, every trick is used to corrupt the meaning! Such is the peversion of the Bible by some!

 

[ICHTHUS]

God (Gen 1:1).

Are you going to bring up Col 1:16?

Now hear, if you will/can, the words of God the Father, in direct address to Jesus Christ:

"And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Hebrews 1:10-12)

Notice that the Greek κύριε is used here, LORD, which is in the vocative, used for direct address.

Also notice, that God the Father here quotes from Psalm 102:24-27

"O my God (Elohim),” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days— you whose years endure throughout all generations!” Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end"

For God the Father to take words that are addressed directly to ELOHIM, and say that it is JESUS CHRIST, surely this is one of the strongest Testimonies in the Bible, to that Jesus Christ is Almighty God? How can the Father use these words in the OT, for Jesus Christ, which makes Jesus the ACTUAL CREATOR, if Jesus Christ is not GOD? There is no escape from this!

 

[shroom]

Now hear, if you will/can, the words of God the Father, in direct address to Jesus Christ:

"And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Hebrews 1:10-12)

Notice that the Greek κύριε is used here, LORD, which is in the vocative, used for direct address.

Also notice, that God the Father here quotes from Psalm 102:24-27

"O my God (Elohim),” I say, “take me not away in the midst of my days— you whose years endure throughout all generations!” Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end"

For God the Father to take words that are addressed directly to ELOHIM, and say that it is JESUS CHRIST, surely this is one of the strongest Testimonies in the Bible, to that Jesus Christ is Almighty God? How can the Father use these words in the OT, for Jesus Christ, which makes Jesus the ACTUAL CREATOR, if Jesus Christ is not GOD? There is no escape from this!

I don’t go by proof-texts to try and prove a doctrine that is not clearly explained in the Bible. God is NEVER described as a Trinity, or triune, or three persons consisting of the same essence. It’s not anywhere in the Bible. All the Trinitarian proof-texts can be understood from a Unitarian perspective.

Concerning Heb 1:10-12: https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Hebrews/chapter1/10

 

[ICHTHUS]

I don’t go by proof-texts to try and prove a doctrine that is not clearly explained in the Bible. God is NEVER described as a Trinity, or triune, or three persons consisting of the same essence. It’s not anywhere in the Bible. All the Trinitarian proof-texts can be understood from a Unitarian perspective.

Concerning Heb 1:10-12: https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Hebrews/chapter1/10

as usual you reject what the Bible teaches, for your biased view of Jesus Christ. nothing more to say to you on this

 

[shroom]

as usual you reject what the Bible teaches,

Actually I don’t. The Bible does not teach that God is a Trinity. The Trinity is read into the Bible, and does not come from the Bible. It’s an inferred doctrine.

for your biased view of Jesus Christ.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is a man.

nothing more to say to you on this

Ok.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again ICHTHUS,

Trevor, what you suggest is what you believe that the Bible should say about Jesus Christ, which is based on your understanding on Him, and not what the Bible says. Your argument from Psalm 110:1, proves nothing, as There are many instances in the Old Testament, where “Adon” is used for Almighty God. In Exodus 23:17, “the Lord (Adon) GOD”; Exodus 34:23,

Yes, I consider Psalm 110:1 is significant. You are attempting to change Lord where it applies to Yahweh in the NT and the exposition of Psalm 110:1 in Acts 2 speaks of God making Jesus "Lord" not Yahweh. Now you are using a similar logic trying to merge or equate where the word "Lord (Adon)" is used for God the Father to where "Lord" is used for Jesus in the NT. So firstly, are you dropping the claim that "Lord" when speaking for Jesus is Yahweh.

Yes, "Adon" is used for Almighty God, as the One God, Yahweh, God the Father is Lord of heaven and earth. I am not sure if you are aware that in the reference that you quote “the Lord (Adon) GOD”; Exodus 34:23, that the word "GOD" here is Yahweh. To me this proves that you should avoid trying to merge "Lord" and "Yahweh" as they have distinct meanings. The One God, Yahweh, god the Father is the supreme Lord over heaven and earth, but God has appointed Jesus to be Lord, to be the King upon the Throne of David. Psalm 8 and its exposition by Jesus in Matthew 11 shows this development:
Psalm 8:1–6 (KJV): 1 O LORD (Yahweh) our Lord (Adon), how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

So, to say that “Adon”, “is always used in Scripture to describe human masters and lords, but never God”, is downright misleading.

I never said that or claimed that. God is the Lord of heaven and earth. What I am objecting to is that you are trying to merge the two words Yahweh and Lord, and applying them incorrectly.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[ICHTHUS]

What I am objecting to is that you are trying to merge the two words Yahweh and Lord, and applying them incorrectly.

that is your opinion, to which I disagree.