If you were stranded on a deserted island...

[Studyman]

Not really. If you were stealing and stopped simply because of that change of heart God prompted in you, there would actually be no evidence.... you would simply stop doing what you were doing before (stealing)
No “work” required as evidence at all, the change was inward. The only evidence would be ‘no evidence’ of stealing. That isn’t “a work” at all, -stopping stealing is an outward sign, a “result” of the inward change.

I can see what you are getting at, and this is a very popular philosophy, which I would be fine with, if not for the Scriptures.. But according the Scriptures, in my view, it seems the very reason for the Change in heart, is to change the behavior. The very Purpose of God's instruction is to get us through this life, "Acceptable to Him". We don't "Stop Stealing" to change the heart. The heart is changed so we will "Stop Stealing".

As it is written;

2 Cor. 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

According to the God of Abraham, it's wrong to Steal. The very purpose of Keeping the Commandment of God, "Thou Shall not Steal", is so we will Stop Stealing. By "Walking" in God's instructions (Spiritual, because God is Spiritual), we learn to become "Men of God". As Paul also teaches.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Why do we need all these things if all that is necessary is a changed heart?

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Because the purpose of the Scriptures is to change behavior.

So because of these scriptures and the rest of the Holy Scriptures, I believe the "changed heart" is for the very purpose of amending our "works", from being unacceptable to God, to being acceptable to God.. As Paul also teaches;

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this worldOr it's religions) but be ye transformed ( our behavior) by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I know I'm bucking centuries of religious traditions, and popular religious philosophers. But this understanding comes from Scriptures, when a man considers them all as Jesus instructs.

Think about it Mr. E.

 

[Mr E]

But according the Scriptures, in my view, it seems the very reason for the Change in heart, is to change the behavior. The very Purpose of God's instruction is to get us through this life, "Acceptable to Him". We don't "Stop Stealing" to change the heart. The heart is changed so we will "Stop Stealing".

You missed my point. I said- the change within that God prompted. The change within comes before any change in behavior, right? Stopping stealing is the result of that change within, that change of heart. You are correct in saying we don't stop stealing to change the heart. We are saying the same thing. We could extrapolate and say further-- that if one didn't stop his stealing, then there probably wasn't a change of heart. Yet that isn't true on it's own. Stealing is a sin that we fall into. You can decide not to steal ever again (a change of heart) and then be tempted and fall again next week. So then one finds himself once more in need of another change of heart-- it's the nature of our human condition that makes us so.... as long as we are here we are subject to sinning.

However- regarding the rest of your post- it's not some imagined "religious philosophy" that says the change within comes first. And the change comes only from the only "acts" we can do to ready ourselves for those needed changes to come- and that is to believe, to repent, and to surrender our will to God.

When I was a fireman on the way to a reported fire, we'd search the skies along the way- looking for smoke and if spotted before our arrival we would know we had 'a worker' --meaning hey boys, this is the real deal, get ready--- because where there is smoke there is fire. -But like my Traeger Grill, the opposite is true as well. If there is smoke coming out the stack, I know it's heating up. If there is no smoke coming out the stack I know something is wrong-- that there is no fire within. The Holy Spirit is that fire. If there is fire within, there's going to be some smoke rising. The smoke counts for nothing-- it is a by product of the fire. An outward sign of the inward flame. Such are works.

That thief on the cross is a tough nut to crack for those who say works are necessary for salvation. All he did was stop mocking and believe.

 

[Studyman]

You missed my point. I said- the change within that God prompted. The change within comes before any change in behavior, right? Stopping stealing is the result of that change within, that change of heart. You are correct in saying we don't stop stealing to change the heart. We are saying the same thing. We could extrapolate and say further-- that if one didn't stop his stealing, then there probably wasn't a change of heart. Yet that isn't true on it's own. Stealing is a sin that we fall into. You can decide not to steal ever again (a change of heart) and then be tempted and fall again next week. So then one finds himself once more in need of another change of heart-- it's the nature of our human condition that makes us so.... as long as we are here we are subject to sinning.

A Child that is learning to walk, has the mindset to walk. Just because he falls, doesn't mean he needs a new or different mindset. Nor does it mean he can not learn to walk. He falls, he gets up and tries the same thing again. And if he keeps trying, Or as the scriptures say "Continues in God's Goodness" which his mind is set to do, then he will learn how to walk, just as Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Zacharias, and every example of Faith in the entire Scriptures, learned how to walk.

But if the child is convinced by some other voice, that because he fell, means it is impossible for him to Walk, then he will stop trying, and fulfill his own prophesy.

The Purpose of God's Commandment "Thou shall not Steal" is to change the behavior of one who steals, to one who doesn't steal. That is the Goal. It doesn't matter if he falls, God knows His Children will fall learning to "Walk" in the Way of the Lord. What matters is that we care enough about being reconciled to God, that we never allow anyone to Judge us or convince us that it is impossible not to steal, or that God doesn't look at stealing as wrong anymore.

Paul understood the importance "fighting the Good Fight", and so did David, who wiped his tears, washed his face, and continued to "Walk in the Way of the Lord", after falling.

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

However- regarding the rest of your post- it's not some imagined "religious philosophy" that says the change within comes first.

I never said the change of mind did not happen first Mr. E. I posted several scriptures and addressed them for your review, to show where my belief comes from, that the sole purpose of the inward "change of mind" that God Prompted me to engage in, is to amend my behavior from being a man who "works iniquity" to a man who is "an obedient child". As it is written;

1 Pet. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I think it is popular, but untrue just the same, to believe I can be holy as defined by God, apart from any "works". And the scriptures surely don't teach as much, in my view. If you can show me in Scriptures where this understanding in wrong, then please do.

And the change comes only from the only "acts" we can do to ready ourselves for those needed changes to come- and that is to believe, to repent, and to surrender our will to God.

Yes, I agree. To ready our self for the Change of Mind. To "Study to show ourselves approved of God", To "Beware of the religious philosophies of this world", to "Take Heed" of religious men who come in Jesus Name". As it is written;

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Our goal in Christ Jesus, "Go and Sin no more".

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

When I was a fireman on the way to a reported fire, we'd search the skies along the way- looking for smoke and if spotted before our arrival we would know we had 'a worker' --meaning hey boys, this is the real deal, get ready--- because where there is smoke there is fire. -But like my Traeger Grill, the opposite is true as well. If there is smoke coming out the stack, I know it's heating up. If there is no smoke coming out the stack I know something is wrong-- that there is no fire within. The Holy Spirit is that fire. If there is fire within, there's going to be some smoke rising. The smoke counts for nothing-- it is a by product of the fire. An outward sign of the inward flame. Such are works.

I don't agree with your analogy at all because the Scriptures don't agree, in my view.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

That thief on the cross is a tough nut to crack for those who say works are necessary for salvation. All he did was stop mocking and believe.

I heard of that teaching before. But you have absolutely zero information about this guy before that day. This verse is used to promote the "no works" religious philosophy, but to use it, so much of Jesus' own words must be ignored. Like the following.

First, Jesus said; "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

You are assuming that this man didn't know about Jesus before that day, or that he didn't "turn to God" prior to his sentence.

Again;

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

So you are also assuming this guy didn't "change his mind" after his incarceration. In fact, you know nothing of him Mr. E. All you know is that God accepted him.

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

How did this guy know this about Jesus? How did he know about the Messiah, and the Kingdom of God?

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

How did this man know Jesus would be raised from the dead?

Who told you that this man was a "worker of Iniquity" until he saw his death coming, then suddenly decided to believe, just minutes before his death, and was saved?

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But this man, can live a life of lust and sin, and be forgiven on his deathbed.

I don't know Mr. E, like the teaching that the Law and Prophets didn't teach about the dangers of this world's riches, nor how to treat the poor brothers among you.

I just see a different Gospel Mr. E, one which aligns with the Scriptures.

Anyway, how can we find the truth about this world's teaching, if we don't have these discussions.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Mr E]

A Child that is learning to walk, has the mindset to walk. Just because he falls, doesn't mean he needs a new or different mindset. Nor does it mean he can not learn to walk. He falls, he gets up and tries the same thing again. And if he keeps trying, Or as the scriptures say "Continues in God's Goodness" which his mind is set to do, then he will learn how to walk, just as Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Zacharias, and every example of Faith in the entire Scriptures, learned how to walk.

But if the child is convinced by some other voice, that because he fell, means it is impossible for him to Walk, then he will stop trying, and fulfill his own prophesy.

The Purpose of God's Commandment "Thou shall not Steal" is to change the behavior of one who steals, to one who doesn't steal. That is the Goal. It doesn't matter if he falls, God knows His Children will fall learning to "Walk" in the Way of the Lord. What matters is that we care enough about being reconciled to God, that we never allow anyone to Judge us or convince us that it is impossible not to steal, or that God doesn't look at stealing as wrong anymore.

Paul understood the importance "fighting the Good Fight", and so did David, who wiped his tears, washed his face, and continued to "Walk in the Way of the Lord", after falling.

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.



I never said the change of mind did not happen first Mr. E. I posted several scriptures and addressed them for your review, to show where my belief comes from, that the sole purpose of the inward "change of mind" that God Prompted me to engage in, is to amend my behavior from being a man who "works iniquity" to a man who is "an obedient child". As it is written;

1 Pet. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I think it is popular, but untrue just the same, to believe I can be holy as defined by God, apart from any "works". And the scriptures surely don't teach as much, in my view. If you can show me in Scriptures where this understanding in wrong, then please do.




Yes, I agree. To ready our self for the Change of Mind. To "Study to show ourselves approved of God", To "Beware of the religious philosophies of this world", to "Take Heed" of religious men who come in Jesus Name". As it is written;

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Our goal in Christ Jesus, "Go and Sin no more".

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



I don't agree with your analogy at all because the Scriptures don't agree, in my view.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.



I heard of that teaching before. But you have absolutely zero information about this guy before that day. This verse is used to promote the "no works" religious philosophy, but to use it, so much of Jesus' own words must be ignored. Like the following.

First, Jesus said; "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

You are assuming that this man didn't know about Jesus before that day, or that he didn't "turn to God" prior to his sentence.

Again;

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

So you are also assuming this guy didn't "change his mind" after his incarceration. In fact, you know nothing of him Mr. E. All you know is that God accepted him.

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

How did this guy know this about Jesus? How did he know about the Messiah, and the Kingdom of God?

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

How did this man know Jesus would be raised from the dead?

Who told you that this man was a "worker of Iniquity" until he saw his death coming, then suddenly decided to believe, just minutes before his death, and was saved?

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But this man, can live a life of lust and sin, and be forgiven on his deathbed.

I don't know Mr. E, like the teaching that the Law and Prophets didn't teach about the dangers of this world's riches, nor how to treat the poor brothers among you.

I just see a different Gospel Mr. E, one which aligns with the Scriptures.

Anyway, how can we find the truth about this world's teaching, if we don't have these discussions.

Thanks for the reply.

Fortunately agreement isn’t a requirement for fellowship. You conveniently ignored that thief on the cross in your discussion on stealing.

 

[truthjourney]

If you were on a deserted island, all by yourself, and you only had the Bible, and you had no teacher, how would you know God's Truth? How would you be saved?

This may not be exactly what you're asking but it's what comes to mind. When I was a very young child, before I could read and understand the bible, and had no understanding about doctrines etc., I would often go into the woods alone for hours. I would observe the beauty of my surroundings knowing in a childlike way that God created all I could see there including the animals. I felt very humble and had admiration and was astounded by the power of God and I felt His presence there with me. I felt His love and acceptance and mercy and gentleness. I remember once how I was drawn to the light streaming down through the trees and put my hand into the light, smiled and thought, how beautiful and how wonderful You are. I felt safe and loved and thought of God as my Father. I felt closer to God in that place than I ever felt in a church. I guess that was sort of like a deserted island to me. That's one of the reasons I liked it so much.

 

[patrick jane]

This may not be exactly what you're asking but it's what comes to mind. When I was a very young child, before I could read and understand the bible, and had no understanding about doctrines etc., I would often go into the woods alone for hours. I would observe the beauty of my surroundings knowing in a childlike way that God created all I could see there including the animals. I felt very humble and had admiration and was astounded by the power of God and I felt His presence there with me. I felt His love and acceptance and mercy and gentleness. I remember once how I was drawn to the light streaming down through the trees and put my hand into the light, smiled and thought, how beautiful and how wonderful You are. I felt safe and loved and thought of God as my Father. I felt closer to God in that place than I ever felt in a church. I guess that was sort of like a deserted island to me. That's one of the reasons I liked it so much.

I went in the woods a lot as a kid and I also thought of God if I was alone. If one or two friends were with me we would sometimes talk about God, but usually it was with one friend or by myself. We hung out in different wooded areas around the subdivision. I look up a lot when I'm outdoors and I have a whole new concept of the earth and cosmos. God is close, never far away.

 

[Studyman]

It was an outward cleaning. The Bible says so. Nevertheless, it was a teaching tool, a shadow of Jesus. Of course the man who makes the shadow is more than the shadow, but that does not defer from the fact that the people had to do those purification works themselves, to be made justified before God.

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The people in the OT were not a "shadow" of Jesus GT. You are right about a lot of things, but your teaching that the Levitical Priesthood allowed men who sinned to "Purify themselves" is simply not true. King Saul was rejected because he didn't wait for the Priest, to offer his Sacrifice to God, and did it himself. The Levitical Priesthood, and their cleansing "works of the Law", spiritually mirrored the Christ's duties of atonement and reconciliation, as they were the Advocate between the "People" and God. The People could not sprinkle the blood of their own sacrifice on the Alter, they couldn't cleanse the tabernacle, or light the candlestick, or even enter the Tabernacle. God did not create a Priesthood in which a man can purify himself, it was always a REQUIREMENT to take a sin offering to the designated Priest of God, in my understanding of the Scriptures.

And it still is, it's just that our New High Priest exists in our mind now, not a man made tabernacle, and he is no longer exclusively a Levite, but the Christ, our High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek, as Prophesied in the Law and Prophets. But we are are still required to bring our sin offering, (Repentance, Contrite heart, etc.) to the Designated High Priest of God for purification, sanctification, forgiveness.

I was rude to you awhile back, and insulting. I fight the false teaching in the religions of this world so much, that sometimes I forget my place. I owe you an apology for my condescending tone. I'm truly sorry.

I don't want to "Tell you" what to believe is Biblical Truth, I want to present the evidence from scriptures, and let us read them together, in fellowship, and in search of Biblical truth. In this way, where two or more are gathered in His Name, we can let the Spirit of the Christ show us all truth. Even the little leaven's that can grow and leaven the whole lump.

Heb. 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Notice in Exodus that the Covenant God made with Levi was after God gave His 10 Commandments. This is because, I believe, that at first, God only furthered His Covenant of Abraham onto Abraham's Children. It wasn't until they sinned that God made His "first", stand alone covenant, with them regarding "Works of the Law" for Atonement. "Work's of the Law" that Abraham did not have. It is written that God made this Covenant with Levi, "On Israel's Behalf". I am glad to show the scriptures which lead to this belief.

2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests (Not the People) went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

The Truth of these scriptures show, in my view, that "Atonement/Purification" was not possible without first taking a sin offering to the Priest of God, who resided in the "first Tabernacle" for the service of God. It was this Priest who provided the "Purification" of the people, for God.

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

No. They had to do the works themselves to purify themselves and of course the priests had part in it.

Look at the Holy Scriptures and think about them for a moment. The "Order of Aaron" was never about people purifying themselves. To me, it is just the opposite. I foreshadowed the requirement of God to seek out God's High Priest, to be reconciled to God.

If you reconsider and still are not persuaded, then please show a brother the Scriptures which you believe makes your case that God's Levitical Priesthood was designed for people to "Purify" themselves.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What's the Greek word for deaf? It's the same word for mute and deaf-- yes, they go hand in hand.

Zacharias was made kophos. He was made silent. Unable to speak. So how can you say he wasn't deaf with any certainty?

If he wasn't deaf, couldn't they just ask him what he wanted to name the baby?

And it happened that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they were going to call him Zacharias, after his father. But his mother answered and said, “No indeed; but he shall be called John.” And they said to her, “There is no one among your relatives who is called by that name.” And they made signs to his father, as to what he wanted him called.

I've said before Mike-- you have the right to be wrong..... and you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you.

I tend to go along with the Angel as well as these folks who also do.

Meyer's NT Commentary
Luke 1:62 f. Ἐνένευον] They conveyed by signs to him the question (τό, see Krüger, ad Xen. Anab. iv. 4. 17; Kühner, II. p. 138), how (τί = τί ὄνομα, comp. Aesch. Ag. 1205) he perchance (ἄν, see Winer, p. 275 [E. T. 386]) would wish that the child (αὐτό, see the critical remarks) should be named. The making signs does not presuppose deafness and dumbness (Chrysostom, Theophylact, Euthymius Zigabenus, Jansen, Maldonatus, Lightfoot, Grotius, Wolf, and others, including Ewald), against which may be urged Luke 1:20; nor is it to be explained by the fact, that we are inclined to communicate by means of signs with dumb people as with deaf people (Bengel, Michaelis, Paulus, Olshausen, de Wette), which can only be arbitrarily applied to Zacharias, since he had only been dumb for a short time and people had previously been accustomed to speak with him. Probably it was only from the wish to spare the mother that the decision of the father, who had all along been listening to the discussion, was called for not aloud, but by signs.

Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 1:62. ἐνένευον (here only in N. T.): they made signs, which seems to imply that Zechariah is supposed to be deaf as well as dumb. Various suggestions have been made to evade this conclusion; e.g., that men are very apt to treat a dumb person as if he were also deaf (Bengel, De Wette, Godet); that they communicated by signs instead of by speech to spare the feelings of Elizabeth, whose judgment was being appealed from (Meyer); that a sign was all that was needed, Zechariah having heard all that was said (Bleek, J. Weiss, Hahn).—τὸ before the clause following—τί ἂν θέλοι, viewed as a substantive, is very appropriate in a case where the question was not spoken but signalled.—ἂν θέλοι: the optative with ἂν, implies diverse possibilities; found in Lk.’s writings only in N. T.

Bengel's Gnomen
Luke 1:62. Ἐνένευον, they made signs) To one dumb it is more convenient, that he should see persons making signs, than that he should hear them speaking, inasmuch as he is not able to reply to them by word of mouth. It is not probable that Zacharias was also deaf.—τὸ) The article is here demonstrative.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

The people in the OT were not a "shadow" of Jesus GT.

1Peter 1
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[L.B.]

I went in the woods a lot as a kid and I also thought of God if I was alone. If one or two friends were with me we would sometimes talk about God, but usually it was with one friend or by myself. We hung out in different wooded areas around the subdivision. I look up a lot when I'm outdoors and I have a whole new concept of the earth and cosmos. God is close, never far away.

Oh my PJ.
You captured the essence of closeness to God!
I remember going to school and feeling so alone on the way. I would have this sense now and then of God... seeing nature.. and feel a deep connection.
When I was having to sit exams, my walk to the exam room was solitary, and I shunned company as I was distressed. Those times God seemed very present: and I would pray to Him.... and suddenly I never cared about results and say the greater part in my mind... humanity of the social world became fleeting and I no longer felt its demands.
Look up often my brother, as the world around us is a wilting day- but we have been given so much more, and can see a tilt beyond tomorrow!
Thank you, you conjured up a great moment- please keep the woods alive, and mention them often!

 

[Studyman]

1Peter 1
11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

LOL, Just recently you worked quite hard to convince me that the Holy Prophets in the OT were "robbers and Thieves, who came to Kill and Destroy". And you selected JN. 7-10, as support for this teaching. I used this verse above, and several others in defense and support of my belief that God's Prophets HE SENT, in which the Spirit of Christ resided, were not "robbers and Thieves, who came to Kill and Destroy". And that Jesus was referring to the "Priest's" which came before Him, who had corrupted the Covenant God made with Levi. But to no avail, as these Scriptures were not able to persuade you.

But Now you are using this same Scripture, it seems, to promote the religious philosophy that these same Prophets, who you claim are were all "robbers and Thieves, who came to Kill and Destroy" are NOW "Shadows" of Jesus? So which is it?


Perhaps I need to define my use of "The People" since you must not have read the rest of the post you replied to.

God sent His Prophet's to the "People" in the OT, Yes? God didn't send the "People" to the "People" did HE? The Levitical Priesthood was given on behalf of the "People" in the OT, Yes? The Sacrifices and Priesthood duties were given for the "People" in the OT, YES?

The "People" in the OT were not a "shadow" of Jesus 1M1S. As it is written in your own Bible;

Heb. 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: (What "LAW"? Love God and Your neighbor and all that hangs on them? Or the Covenant God made with Levi?)

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

And Again;

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers (The People in the OT) were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

The "People" in the OT were not Shadows of Christ Jesus.

It seems the Scriptures are teaching, that the Levitical Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" was a "shadow" of the Prophesied Priesthood "After the Order of Melchizedek".

If you believe this understanding NOT to be Biblical Truth, then please show the Scriptures and explanation as to why. That is the reason why you replied to the post, Yes? To discredit my post to GT as wrong, false and not true?

Would it not edify more to actually examine the Scriptures in search of the truth, and engage in a Honest discussion of their content?

Is this not the reason for the forum in the first place?

 

[Mr E]

I tend to go along with the Angel as well as these folks who also do.

Meyer's NT Commentary
Luke 1:62 f. Ἐνένευον] They conveyed by signs to him the question (τό, see Krüger, ad Xen. Anab. iv. 4. 17; Kühner, II. p. 138), how (τί = τί ὄνομα, comp. Aesch. Ag. 1205) he perchance (ἄν, see Winer, p. 275 [E. T. 386]) would wish that the child (αὐτό, see the critical remarks) should be named. The making signs does not presuppose deafness and dumbness (Chrysostom, Theophylact, Euthymius Zigabenus, Jansen, Maldonatus, Lightfoot, Grotius, Wolf, and others, including Ewald), against which may be urged Luke 1:20; nor is it to be explained by the fact, that we are inclined to communicate by means of signs with dumb people as with deaf people (Bengel, Michaelis, Paulus, Olshausen, de Wette), which can only be arbitrarily applied to Zacharias, since he had only been dumb for a short time and people had previously been accustomed to speak with him. Probably it was only from the wish to spare the mother that the decision of the father, who had all along been listening to the discussion, was called for not aloud, but by signs.

Expositor's Greek Testament
Luke 1:62. ἐνένευον (here only in N. T.): they made signs, which seems to imply that Zechariah is supposed to be deaf as well as dumb. Various suggestions have been made to evade this conclusion; e.g., that men are very apt to treat a dumb person as if he were also deaf (Bengel, De Wette, Godet); that they communicated by signs instead of by speech to spare the feelings of Elizabeth, whose judgment was being appealed from (Meyer); that a sign was all that was needed, Zechariah having heard all that was said (Bleek, J. Weiss, Hahn).—τὸ before the clause following—τί ἂν θέλοι, viewed as a substantive, is very appropriate in a case where the question was not spoken but signalled.—ἂν θέλοι: the optative with ἂν, implies diverse possibilities; found in Lk.’s writings only in N. T.

Bengel's Gnomen
Luke 1:62. Ἐνένευον, they made signs) To one dumb it is more convenient, that he should see persons making signs, than that he should hear them speaking, inasmuch as he is not able to reply to them by word of mouth. It is not probable that Zacharias was also deaf.—τὸ) The article is here demonstrative.

I guess it's easy to convince oneself of anything that you've already convinced yourself of. It's easy to dismiss truth if you've made your mind up that something other than the truth is what you are going to believe and cling to despite any evidence. Al Gore or Dr Fauci would love having you on board.

Zachariah was "made silent AND unable to speak." He wouldn't be silent if he could hear and they wouldn't have to make signs to communicate with him if he could. But you go on and believe whatever you want.