Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity

[Mr E]

We’ll obviously have to disagree on this point.

And we can. But I can point you to chapter and verse where Jesus said it. (John 8:44)

And I can point you to what he was referencing. (Exodus 3:6)

When Yahweh saw that he had turned aside to look, the elohim called to him from within the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”

He added, “I am the elohim of your father, the elohim of Abraham, the elohim of Isaac, and the elohim of Jacob.”

Then Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at the elohim.


Jesus, when referencing this scene, points out that they don't have a good understanding of what elohim are. He does this in conversation with the Sadducees, who posed a question about something they didn't even believe in-- the resurrection of the dead. Look closely at his response to them. Where the translators insert the generic Greek word 'theos' or English "God"-- from the text in Exodus it's very apparent that he's talking about divine spirits-- elohim and not his Father. The elohim- he points out-- are like the angels in heaven-- spirits that have ascended after the body has died. Yahweh is one of these. It says so all over scripture, and here too in Exodus 3. Yahweh- the elohim.

Jesus answered them, “You are deceived because you don’t know the scriptures or the power of divine spirits. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by Yahweh the elohim (in Exodus 3)? -‘I am the elohim of Abraham, the elohim of Isaac, and the elohim of Jacob’? He is not the elohim of the dead but of the living!”


If I left any doubt-- who is talking to Moses from that burning bush? - the messenger of God. --Not God, the Father, but a sent one. And sent by who? By Yahweh, the elohim. The text says an angel of Yahweh and Yahweh is an elohim.


In Matthew 22, Jesus could have said in most simple form-- Yahweh-- whom you all follow is my Father. But he doesn't. He says Yahweh is the god of your father-- and your father is the devil.

I'm not making it up.

 

[Wrangler]

You put a period after the word "law." What happened to "or the prophets"?

Scope.

I’ve been accused of not fully quoting verses. And that is true. I’m focused on a certain part of the verse and don’t want anyone to get distracted.

 

[Mr E]

It gets worse.

‘Our Father is Abraham’ they said.

Jesus said- ‘Your Father is the devil’ and your God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This is tough stuff.

 

[Wrangler]

He says Yahweh is the god of your father-- and your father is the devil.

I'm not making it up.

I realize you are not making it up. However, I think you are confused.

The Saducces that Jesus was talking to believe their father is YHWH, who is the father of us all.

When Jesus said their father is the devil, he did not literally mean this. He meant they have fallen prey to his lies and are unwittingly doing the Devil’s bidding. Do you think the Saducces were happy to be called the sons of Satan?

 

[Mr E]

I realize you are not making it up. However, I think you are confused.

The Saducces that Jesus was talking to believe their father is YHWH, who is the father of us all.

When Jesus said their father is the devil, he did not literally mean this. He meant they have fallen prey to his lies and are unwittingly doing the Devil’s bidding. Do you think the Saducces were happy to be called the sons of Satan?

He said it, but he didn’t mean it?

Like it or not, you are doing what you often tail against. Reading meaning into text where it isn’t stated. Like those insane Trinitarians— seeing things that aren’t there and blindly not seeing things that are plainly there—- No?

 

[Wrangler]

He said it, but he didn’t mean it?

Nope. The Bible is a highly figurative book. This is what makes it difficult to read by modern folks.

Like it or not, you are doing what you often tail against. Reading meaning into text where it isn’t stated.

In the book I’m reading, the author delves into Jesus’ use of sarcasm. You hold the Sadducces where literally fathered by the Devil?

 

[SteVen]

It gets worse.

‘Our Father is Abraham’ they said.

Jesus said- ‘Your Father is the devil’ and your God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This is tough stuff.

What do you make of this?

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

]

 

[Mattathias]

What do you make of this?

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

]

Is this “Lord” (Gk. kurios) whom Jesus is speaking about not Yahweh? Of course it is. Easily confirmed by simply recalling that Yahweh is many times called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Hebrew Bible.

You have Gnosticism by the throat. My advice: Don’t loosen your grip, or it will kill you.

 

[Mr E]

What do you make of this?

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

]

That's the same encounter from another gospel that I've been referencing-- Matt 22 versus Luke 20. Both point back to Exodus 3.

 

[Mattathias]

Yahweh is Adonai. (See Psalm 110:1.)

Adonai elohenu Adonai echad.

Deuteronomy 6:4. The Shema. The creed of Jewish monotheism. The Messiah’s own creed.

Blessed be the God and Father of our lord (adoni; Psalm 110:1) Jesus Messiah. Blessed be Yahweh.

 

[Mr E]

Is this “Lord” (Gk. kurios) whom Jesus is speaking about not Yahweh? Of course it is. Easily confirmed by simply recalling that Yahweh is many times called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Hebrew Bible.

You have Gnosticism by the throat. My advice: Don’t loosen your grip, or it will kill you.

Here's the problem you face. Jesus confronted the Pharisees, telling them that they had the wrong idea of his Father. No. He told them directly that they had the wrong Father entirely. And so do you.

How is it that you proudly boast that you have the same God that they had, knowing that they had God all wrong?