Defining the godhead - an open discussion on Unitarianism, Binitarianism and Trinitarianism

[SteVen]

SteVen said:
That is the way it is stated. The point being that Jesus is deity.

Except that is stated no where.

It's true that Jesus didn't just stand up and say point blank, "I am God." or "I am deity."
But it was certainly the way those how witnessed what he said took it and what the Apostles wrote about him.

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 1:1, 14 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

]

 

[Hillsage]

I and @RedFan discuss the "begotten" issue here: https://whitehorseforums.com/threads/what-did-john-3-16-mean-by-monogenē.3170/.

Bart Ehrman and other scholars have shown that the Christian thinking of Jesus as divine evolved from begotten at the Resurrection ... to begotten at his baptism ... to begotten at his conception in Mary's womb ... to begotten in eternity. I believe the notion of begotten in eternity but somehow never not existing is unintelligible. To the extent I consider John as a reliable guide to anything, I believe he is referring to the glory of the Word made flesh - i.e., to Jesus as the only begotten (genuinely begotten, in the human sense) son. This is what the disciples beheld. Doesn't this make more sense? Doesn't it fit the context far better? Isn't any other reading just an attempt to prop up the doctrine of the Trinity, as though that doctrine were driving the theological bus?

I don't think Jesus was "Begotten when He was impregnated in Mary." He wasn't begotten/BORN until 9 months after she was impregnated with the 'animating life force' of the spirit of Christ. That makes sense to me. And the fact that the WORD/spirit morphed into "sinful flesh" kind of ruined divinity for the WORD. For me the 'holy spirit of Christ' was 'the son' and not 'the body' of Jesus.

As far as the Resurrection body Jesus returned with, that was a spiritual body and not a sinful/carnal natured body....IMO. More musing than declaring anything here.

 

[O'Darby III]

Perhaps God doesn't plan every aspect of life as if we are His little game pieces to be moved about, play by play. Maybe He just lets us be and watches what happens. And this goes on, until it can't. And then the board is wiped with a wave of His hand and a new season begins. Like Game of Thrones, or Lord of the Rings....

The divine purpose, might simply be-- for His enjoyment. At His leisure, for entertainment purposes only.

Oops - included this by mistake. I respond to it below.

SteVen said:
That is the way it is stated. The point being that Jesus is deity.

It's true that Jesus didn't just stand up and say point blank, "I am God." or "I am deity."
But it was certainly the way those how witnessed what he said took it and what the Apostles wrote about him.

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 1:1, 14 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

]

You are, of course, relying on the late and largely Hellenistic/Neo-Platonic writings of John and upon an epistle that large numbers of scholars do not believe was written by Paul and that likewise reflects a Hellenistic/Neo-Platonic Christology unknown in Paul's time. Prettty weak evidence for who Jesus actually thought and taught he was. My guess is that Jesus would have been astounded and aghast at the notion that all of Creation was in him, for him and through him,

 

[SteVen]

Not that I care...

The last thing you said to me was, "Have a nice life." (from memory)
After you had mercifully deleted a post that was too snide even for you to post.
But here you are again. Not sure what I've done wrong.

/

 

[O'Darby III]

He wasn't begotten/BORN until 9 months after she was impregnated with the 'animating life force' of the spirit of Christ.

Mary was told the Holy Spirit would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow here. I see Jesus as being begotten when that occurred, which was presumably the divine equivalent of a sperm fertilizing an egg, not when he was born.

 

[O'Darby III]

Not sure what I've done wrong.

By "not that I care," I simply meant I don't really care if you (or anyone else) choose to accept the verses you cite as supporting the Trinity. By "have a nice life," I simply meant have a nice life at Christianity Board. I don't suggest you've "done anything wrong." I don't really have the energy for internet forums anymore and have emerged from my little hole for a mere hour just because I'm stuck inside this afternoon. Back down in a moment.

Oh, the "snide" part was simply tweaking you for being so obviously desperate for acceptance at CB and apparently for those you listed (including me) to wave pom-poms over your reinstatement. I find it a bit bizarre, but there was no need for me to say anything about it.

 

[O'Darby III]

Does God have to have a plan? Can God be a part of the human experience while remaining apart from it all?

Perhaps God doesn't plan every aspect of life as if we are His little game pieces to be moved about, play by play. Maybe He just lets us be and watches what happens. And this goes on, until it can't. And then the board is wiped with a wave of His hand and a new season begins. Like Game of Thrones, or Lord of the Rings....

The divine purpose, might simply be-- for His enjoyment. At His leisure, for entertainment purposes only.

There is quite a gulf between "God doesn't plan every aspect of life as if we are His little game pieces to be moved about, play by play" and "The divine purpose, might simply be-- for His enjoyment. At His leisure, for entertainment purposes only."

I don't doubt that omni-creativity is a key part of God's nature and that he enjoys the creation in an artistic sense. Nevertheless, I have never thought, and most versions of Christianity don't teach, that he predetermines, foreknows or micromanages every life or aspect of life.

That being said, it is fundamental to Christianity and virtually every other religion that there is a plan and purpose to creation and human existence. If it's strictly for God's self-amusement - "for entertainment purposes only" - then Jesus was a delusional fraud, the very foundations of Christianity go poof, and theology is a bad joke.

Deism posits that God set things in motion and withdrew, which might be consistent with what you suggest, but Christianity definitely is not. Even what I call my Stage 5 beliefs are at the opposite extreme - not only meaning and purpose to the creation itself and to human existence but to every last detail. As NDE accounts consistently emphasize, even the most seemingly trivial events have deep meaning. As Matthew 10:29 teaches, "But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered."

 

[Hillsage]

SteVen said:
That is the way it is stated. The point being that Jesus is deity.

It's true that Jesus didn't just stand up and say point blank, "I am God." or "I am deity."
But it was certainly the way those how witnessed what he said took it and what the Apostles wrote about him.

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

So, when I pray the MY/OUR Father who art in HeavenS plural, I'm making myself equal with God.....just like Jesus did? Right?

John 1:1, 14 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Yes, the Word/spirit WAS past tense GOD.

Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Yes the invisible spirit GOD, made up of The Father, Word, Holy Spirit WERE invisible spirit. That changed when the WORD/spirit gave up equality with GOD as spirit and the WORD spirit alone became VISIBLE flesh.

16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

]

Yes in the past tense when the FLESH WAS/WERE all things were "created THROUGH HIM....but not BY HIM alone. The Father THOUGHT it, the Word SPOKE it and the Holy Spirit DID it.

Works for me bro.

 

[SteVen]

SteVen said:

John 1:1, 14 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Yes, the Word/spirit WAS past tense GOD.

The Word was God. The Word (who was God) made his dwelling among us. (past tense)

Emmanuel = God with us.

Matthew 1:23 KJV
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

]

 

[SteVen]

SteVen said:

Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Yes the invisible spirit GOD, made up of The Father, Word, Holy Spirit WERE invisible spirit. That changed when the WORD/spirit gave up equality with GOD as spirit and the WORD spirit alone became VISIBLE flesh.

Philippians 2:6 NIV
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

]

 

[Hillsage]

By "not that I care," I simply meant I don't really care if you (or anyone else) choose to accept the verses you cite as supporting the Trinity. By "have a nice life," I simply meant have a nice life at Christianity Board. I don't suggest you've "done anything wrong." I don't really have the energy for internet forums anymore and have emerged from my little hole for a mere hour just because I'm stuck inside this afternoon. Back down in a moment.

Oh, the "snide" part was simply tweaking you for being so obviously desperate for acceptance at CB and apparently for those you listed (including me) to wave pom-poms over your reinstatement. I find it a bit bizarre, but there was no need for me to say anything about it.

I know how you feel with both the energy and format. I never care if people don't like what I do with the trinity either. It works for me. And it doesn't prove if someone is or isn't a "brethren" IMO. I often think about how much time everyone here spends arguing while I feel guilty that I am not ministering to human beings like Jesus spent his time....when he wasn't praying and talking to the Father by himself more than anyone I know personally.

Yesterday was a coffee shop high for me though. Myself and another sister got together. I've ministered and served with her in leadership roles before. She was talking to another gal when I came in. Jamie saw me and motioned me to their table. We heard this gal's struggles and confessed sins with sex and drugs and life, for 3 hours. We counseled and shared pertinent scriptures throughout the time. It ended with us laying hands on her right there in the coffee shop. We were softly praying in English and 'tongues from our spirits', prophesying, discerning and binding and casting out spirits....biblical stuff in our opinion. When we said the AMEN and opened our eyes she had tears flowing down her cheeks. I love that, and see it pretty often. After leaving, Jamie texted and; copy/paste; "Thanks for joining me and Alicia today. I believe she received a lot through you today."


I have a men's retreat T-shirt which says; "Could it be any better.?" I can only say; "Only if testimonies like that get more frequent." BTW, we quit the structured church....again....6 months ago. I don't want to GO to church, I want to BE the church.

I'm assuming you emerged today because it was raining....and now the sun is coming back out....and you've seen your shadow???? I hope you do find some energizing peace O'Darby.

 

[Hillsage]

SteVen said:

John 1:1, 14 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.
We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son,
who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word was God. The Word (who was God) made his dwelling among us. (past tense)

Emmanuel = God with us.

As the 'sinful flesh natured BODY' of a MAN.

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Matthew 1:23 KJV
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son,
and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

]

Yes, in the sinful flesh body of a MAN He lived out of His son of God natured spirit of Christ (invisible) and manifested with His sinful flesh natured BODY how God lived through Him with the spirit of Christ IN Him. Works for me Steven.