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Defining the godhead - an open discussion on Unitarianism, Binitarianism and Trinitarianism

SteVen said:

Philippians 2:6 NIV
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

That saw cuts both ways. I should have included verse 5. But didn't think it was needed.
"... Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature[a] God..."

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

]
I've told you before that when a 'definite article' like 'the', is bracketed [a] in the Greek text, that means it is added by the translators who have leaned to 'interpretation' and not 'translation'. Other definite articles besides 'the' are; 'a', 'an'. Where did you find what you posted as being from the NIV? My NIV translations certainly don't say "in very nature [a] God.

The Greek Interlinear that I bought years ago from JWs when they knocked on my door. I asked them if they'd sell me a copy of one (because I heard it was actually a good translation except for when they did. that in John 1:1. They use the Westcot and Hort Greek text. And when they give the English translation in the margin, they simply ADD that word "a" before "God". I'll have to check Philipians 2:6 when I get home. don't believe you are 'leaning' to JW theology on purpose.
 
id:

Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
The Son is **the image** of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Do you think we should worship images?!!

I don’t think so.


Also….

What does “firstborn” mean?

All firstborns have a beginning.

Regarding Philippians 2:6 — BTW, it’s not wise to use one scripture without the context, but I’ll do it here — Philippians 2:6 (Byington) says “….. who, when he [Jesus] was in the form (Gr., morphe) of God, did not regard equality with God as a prize,….”

The verb here is ‘har•pag’•mon’, which never means ‘to hold on to’, or ‘keep’. But it means “to grasp for”, or “to snatch at, or seize”.
Look it up.

Totally different meaning, than what Trinitarians imply.

Plus, one needs to read the rest of the context for a clearer picture.

Best wishes & good night
 
But on another note: 'Gem/Mineral Show', tell me about it as it sounds like a good show to visit... bear in mind I am far away from America.
I appreciate your kind words.

Regarding the gem and mineral show in Tucson: can you access YouTube? If so, search for “Tucson Gem Show”; it’s wonderful, in the true sense of the word!

Best wishes & good night (I really mean it this time! lol)
 
No, I don't believe that the word of God became flesh at the birth of Jesus. I believe that is what happened at the river Jordan, when Jesus was baptized and the spirit (like a dove) descended upon him. Scripture is specific about this instance, while scripture says nothing about the holy spirit of God descending upon that baby in the manger.
This view supposes existing flesh being infused with the Word -- up to that moment still unfleshed -- when the Spirit descended on Jesus' 30+- year old body at the river. And you may be right. But Matt. 3:14 says that the Baptist recognized Jesus as the present (not future) Son of God before that event., and Luke 2:49 says that Jesus recognized himself as the present (not future) Son of God at age 12 -- the same Son that the voice from heaven at his baptism called "my Son," Luke 3:22. So the argument can be made that it was Jesus's birth, not his baptism, which was the event marking the Word becoming flesh in John 1:14, if for no other reason than that John 1:14 equates the Word with the Son of God.

This would mean that Jesus' baptism revealed him as the Son of God. (Maybe the "Lamb" of God, per John 1:29.) But it didn't endow him with that status. I don't know where I come down on this one!
 
This view supposes existing flesh being infused with the Word -- up to that moment still unfleshed -- when the Spirit descended on Jesus' 30+- year old body at the river. And you may be right. But Matt. 3:14 says that the Baptist recognized Jesus as the present (not future) Son of God before that event., and Luke 2:49 says that Jesus recognized himself as the present (not future) Son of God at age 12 -- the same Son that the voice from heaven at his baptism called "my Son," Luke 3:22. So the argument can be made that it was Jesus's birth, not his baptism, which was the event marking the Word becoming flesh in John 1:14, if for no other reason than that John 1:14 equates the Word with the Son of God.

This would mean that Jesus' baptism revealed him as the Son of God. (Maybe the "Lamb" of God, per John 1:29.) But it didn't endow him with that status. I don't know where I come down on this one!

Good points. I think that Matt 3 is illuminated by John 1. Before John makes any sort of declaration of Eureka! he has already seen (in spirit) that there is one coming. He speaks of himself as one who baptizes with water, while there is another among them that no one recognizes who is coming. One who will baptize with the holy spirit (water from above). In John 1:32 John testifies that he, himself, saw the spirit descending like a dove and resting on this one who would come. This happened before the baptism of Jesus, which is how we know he saw this in a dream, and when he saw it happen, he states that even then, he didn't recognize the one upon whom the spirit came and rested. It was only later, at the river, where he saw Jesus and said-- Look! Behold the Lamb of God. And then, you'll notice that in all of the gospel accounts that describe the scene at the river in detail-- it was Jesus who then has the vision of heaven opening, hearing the voice of the Father, and the dove descending upon him. And from that moment, everything changes.

In the example of Luke 2:49-- it doesn't say that Jesus recognized himself as the son of God, or any such thing. Nor does it indicate that he was hearing voices. If anything, it's descriptive of a boy that had a lot of questions, who thought the temple was the best place to look for answers. It says he went to the temple and sat among the teachers, asking them questions. When his parents finally located him, he asked why they were searching for him-- 'Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?' It's a story told only in Luke.

-But there is another story told only in Luke that precedes this one. It's about the old man Simeon, and the old woman Anna. Like John, Simeon had envisioned someday seeing and recognizing 'the chosen one' in the days to come. It says they had been anticipating the day, waiting at the temple for the moment the messiah would be revealed. Simeon had been promised by God that he would see it before he died. And of Simeon, it is said that the holy spirit was upon him, and in fact it was the holy spirit that had revealed to him that he would see the day. Then it says that Simeon was directed by the holy spirit to go into the temple courts that day, and to approach Mary and Joseph, take the child in his arms and speak.

Speaking or doing as directed by the holy spirit doesn't provide special status or indicate some sort of super-power. Just as Simeon was directed to go to the temple and speak, so too the boy Jesus could have been directed to do the same by the same holy spirit, some twelve years later, after Simeon and Anna had already declared him to be the chosen one. And they all, including Jesus could be 'set upon' by the holy spirit without being changed beyond the moment. If the holy spirit was an F-35 fighter jet, this could be the equivalent of a touch and go training run. Practicing obedience to the prompting of the spirit.

On a personal note, when I was a young man of around 16 years-- I found myself one night at a mid-week church meeting-- an open congregational meeting with the pastor and church board of elders, where it was presented to the congregation the plans to accept an offer that had been made by a local business to buy the church property, relocate and build a new church on a larger piece of land on the edge of town. The plan was to construct a large multi-purpose facility, that would require chairs to be set up for Sunday services, but that would otherwise function as a gymnasium, wedding venue, conference center, and so forth. The plan was to build this multi-purpose facility right away, then in years to come since the parcel was large, later we would build a proper sanctuary building separate from the gym. Now I don't know why I thought to attend this meeting, it certainly wasn't my practice. I was just a kid, barely having got my driver's license, but there I was, and I sat (in our old church) up in the loft-- the balcony we called it, where most of the teens sat for church, but this night I was up there all by my lonesome. When the presentation was complete, the floor was opened for comments and questions and everyone was in agreement that this was a great opportunity for the growth of our church, since we were bursting at the seams in the present location with nowhere to expand. The offer to purchase was extremely generous and would entirely fund the new land and building construction for the entire project as presented.

I stood up in that balcony like a voice from above-- and said-- "No one would enjoy having a gym at the church more than me." I was very athletic and a star of the church basketball team-- "And I think it would be awesome to have a gym, but we should honor God and build the sanctuary first-- and it should be the gymnasium, not the sanctuary that is built a few years down the road."

Everyone gasped-- then a few heads nodded. But there was this whole group up front, on stage who were visibly angered at having their plan opposed by a snot-nosed kid. I was told that they appreciated the sentiment and would take it under consideration. ---- Here's the thing. I can't tell you why I was there, or why I said what I said, or what gave me the right-- but I said what I said and to this day I feel like it was one of those twelve-year-old Jesus at the temple moments. The next day I was my old self. It didn't change me in the slightest and when the church went ahead and built that gym, I enjoyed the heck out of playing basketball and volleyball and every youth activity that was ever hosted there. It was a momentary, touch and go holy spirit experience for me at that one meeting. I'd tell you about all the others as I was growing up, but there aren't any. Maybe that's why we have no similar stories from Jesus from the age of 12-30.

Here's what I do know. After the scene at the river- everything changed. After the dove descended and rested upon him, he was never the same. Nothing was ever the same.
 
Tucson!!
“Send Me Down To Tucson” by Mel Tillis

My wife & I are planning on going to their Gem / Mineral Show next year.

Have you ever been to it?
No, we go to the more blue-collar event at Quartzsite. Dealers have told me that Tucson is where you go if you're looking for $100,000 crystals, Quartzite more in the vein of $100-$1000.
 
No, we go to the more blue-collar event at Quartzsite. Dealers have told me that Tucson is where you go if you're looking for $100,000 crystals, Quartzite more in the vein of $100-$1000.
What! A 100,00: I suddenly feel confined by my white striped, blue collar. White stripes for my pretention to afford Champaigne on a beer budget :)... blue stripes on mi collar keep my wallet from gathering moths!
Craft beer it is then at Quartzsite: then over to Tuscon to Keep the Aspidistra Flying.
I looked up the festivals: I would hope we something like that here... but it would likely focus on opals upon stalls in the red earthen planes.
 
For one who claims to know the difference, this is sorely lacking facts and heavily weighted on feelings. That's what opinions are, you know-- your feelings about things. I was going to say that I couldn't care less about what the Pope thinks of Mormons, or his version of Christianity, however he defines it..... but then I met you. At least he has positional status and influence over a segment of that non-monolithic definition, though he would surely argue with you about that fact.

What is it that you think entitles or empowers you to declare axiomatic foundational beliefs about Christianity? Do you make them up as you go, prior to each declaration? Are you able to limit God and declare that He can't do something??? Anything??? -simply for His own pleasure?

Go tell it to St Peter, and say hi to the Pope while you're there. But a sorry State you would be in. You have no credentials.
I am having a difficult time finding a rational train of thought in the above post. My understanding of the foundational beliefs of Christianity is no more my "personal feeling" or "opinion" than is my understanding regarding the shape of the earth. It is not my "opinion" that the earth is not flat. It is the evidence-based conclusion of every reputable scientist in every relevant discipline. If I state "the earth is not flat," it does not become my personal opinion merely because I state it. It is an objective fact, established to a level of scientific certainty.

My "credentials," apart from the ability to think logically and rationally, are irrelevant. (Alvin Plantinga, perhaps the foremost living epistemologist and a strong Christian, emphasizes that the formation of justified religious beliefs presupposes mental faculties properly operating as they were intended to operate. Studies suggest flat earthers exemplify the Dunning-Kruger effect, "a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities." https://www.psypost.org/flat-earthe...exhibit-low-scientific-literacy-study-finds/; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect.)

The foundational beliefs of Christianity - what Christianity is - are likewise not matters of my feelings or opinions. They are shared by every branch of Christianity - Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant - because they define what Christianity is. NO branch of Christianity posits a God who created the universe and humanity for his own self-amusement - or anything like this. ALL posit deep purpose and meaning to creation and human existence. There may be bitter internecine wars within Christianity, but no version posits a God who created for his own amusement. Such an understanding cannot be derived from the Bible, which is indisputably the foundational document of Christianity.

It isn't a matter at all of "limiting" God. It's a matter of who the Bible says he is and who all of Christianity has always understood him to be. If you want to assign different plans and purposes, fine - but it isn't Christianity. I can posit that the creation is the product of the Evil Genius suggested by Descartes - but this wouldn't be Christianity either. To the extent I am able to characterize my own beliefs as Christian at all - which I am not particularly insistent about - it is precisely because they aren't completely inconsistent with the foundational beliefs of Christianity.

In your flawed epistemology, Christianity can be whatever you'd like it to be, just as the earth can be flat if you'd like it to be. It is your views that are the (exceedingly wacky) opinions. This is why the Gnostics weren't Christians - their matrix was an entirely different one, with the creation being the product of a badly flawed if not malevolent lesser deity; fascinating, yes, but not Christianity. To call your views "Christianity" is the equivalent of calling the flat earth a "legitimate scientific hypothesis." The fact that folks here apparently can't see through the nonsense - or at least aren't willing to admit they do - astonishes me.
 
What! A 100,00: I suddenly feel confined by my white striped, blue collar. White stripes for my pretention to afford Champaigne on a beer budget :)... blue stripes on mi collar keep my wallet from gathering moths!
Craft beer it is then at Quartzsite: then over to Tuscon to Keep the Aspidistra Flying.
I looked up the festivals: I would hope we something like that here... but it would likely focus on opals upon stalls in the red earthen planes.
I spent $1000 at Quartzsite - because that's how much cash I took, specifically to limit myself - and came back with literally a van full of cool stuff. But even there, there were crystals in the $20,000 range. My wife picked up one "pretty rock" and asked how much it would be, then put it back much more carefully when the dealer said $25,000. My theory is that cluttering the house with crystals, geodes and petrified wood is at least a significant step up from Walmart knick-knacks. My stepdaughter from Belarus looked around and said "Wow, your house is like a museum" - she was the first person who ever actually got the point and went home with a small horde of Roman coins as her reward.
 
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