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Changes in perspective

Mr G Lee said:
The witness of two as unity was tangled as three until the time of the first century reformation (Hebrew 9)

God tangled it when the athiest Jews gathered themselves together and demanded a king and queen form of government. Earthly inspired after the oral traditions of men,

The Jews had become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations and their religions foundation of "out of sight out of mind" Not trusting the unseen king of kings rejecting God from reigning over them by faith. natural unconverted mankind . .

1 Samuel 8 :6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

The third member (trinity) was introduced (queen of heaven ) when the unbelieving Jewish woman gathered around to liberate them with full permission from the men they demanded having their own he and she gods. God gave them over to do that which they should not of until the time of the first century reformation.

A doctrine that seems to be avoided for some reason ??

Jeremiah 44: 15 Then all the men which knew that their wives had burned incense unto other gods, and all the women that stood by, a great multitude, even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying, As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

Again the 1st century reformation untangled those three. . .the added queen of heaven. just as the 15th century reformation same queen. The third of what some call trinity different name .One that Christ calls the strange woman. . not his bride.

Two (father not seen son seen ) makes up a company. Three is a crowd .

Three is used to denote the end of a manner in parables .
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Well, no.
Ancient Jews used their own scriptures to arrive at the conclusion that YHWH is a unity of persons.
Had nothing to do with being jealous of pagan nations.
And the queen of heaven was most certainly not one they considered to be of the unity of YHWH.
 
shroom said:
Please provide a reference or two for this.
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I have listed several of the scriptures they use many times.
And I have listed sources of unbiased Jews (unbiased because they are Jews that don't even believe Jesus is the Messiah) that readily admit that Jews viewed YHWH as a unity of persons for centuries, two of which are Alan Segal and Benjamin Sommer.
But people just wanted to brush it off and shut their ears as if the info doesn't exist.

Alan Segal wrote a book titled The Two Powers of Heaven where he goes through a lot of scripture that led to this Jewish belief that the "Son of Man" reference in Daniel and other scriptures of the "Angel of the Lord" were indeed believed to be YHWH and yet distinct from the Father, and also documents a lot of the Jewish commentary manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls as well showing that Jews believed it.
The main focus of his book is on those two, but does briefly include the Holy Spirit also as another distinct person of YHWH.

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Benjamin Sommer talks about the belief in several youtube videos.
Here's one of them:



Scholar, Dr. Michael Heiser also talks about it in this video:





Guys, this is not new information.
It's been known and documented for years by several academic scholars of both trin believers and non-trin believers.
 
Sissy said:
Guys, this is not new information.
It's been known and documented for years by several academic scholars of both trin believers and non-trin believers.
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Maybe so.
But the Jews that were in charge when Jesus was here didn't get the memo.
 
Sissy said:
Well, no.
Ancient Jews used their own scriptures to arrive at the conclusion that YHWH is a unity of persons.
Had nothing to do with being jealous of pagan nations.
And the queen of heaven was most certainly not one they considered to be of the unity of YHWH.
Click to expand...

Hi thanks for the reply.. I would offer.

Scripture as it is writen by the finger of God does not belong to and man of any nation .

Ancient athiestic Jews used the oral traditons of dying mankind to make the word of God to no effect adding a member to the witness of two (the father and the Son) as the queen of heaven .His and hers gods .It came about as a result of what they thought was a woman liberation.. . but simply bound them tighter to the god of this world

It had every thing to do with jealous of the nations that walked by sight after the temporal things seen rather that the eternal word of God not seen .

They gathered them selves ,not called by God through the prophets like Samael the last judge that did walk by faith after the unseen things of God

1 Samuel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Kings in Israel the abomination of desolation

God gave them over to do that which they should not of until the time of reformation first century (Hebrew 9.. )

Using all that is writen in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) as the testimony God spoke in all periods of reformation .Same (sola scriptura that worked in the 15 th. century reformation or any time the government of our unseen God is made to no effect by the I heard it through the father grapevine .Reformations (not what some call revivals ) restoring His government back to the time of Judges men and womem prophets from all the nation of the world sent as apostles with the gospel of peace .

Just as prophesied by Joel.

Acts 2:15-17King James Version15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Then the two high walls set up by a kingdom of men that separated the Jewish woman forbidding them to be part of the ceremonies and another high wall that separated the gentile from the Jew came down giving liberty to men and women from all the nations .Creating a new ceremonial law(1 Corinthian 11) Head covering for the woman's hair and uncovering for the men it anticipated the consummation the wedding supper in the new propmised incorruptible bodies where virtue was restored that was lost in the garden
 
Mr G Lee said:
Hi thanks for the reply.. I would offer.

Scripture as it is writen by the finger of God does not belong to and man of any nation .
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That men of the nation of Israel believed YHWH to be a unity of persons doesn't have squat to do with scripture not belonging to men of any nation.
 
1Mind1Spirit said:
Maybe so.
But the Jews that were in charge when Jesus was here didn't get the memo.
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They got it.
That's why Thomas the disciple could call the Son his Lord and his God.
That's why the writers of the NT could use terminology that was believed on by generations of Jews even before Christ was born.
Terminology such as LOGOS/MEMRA/WORD and COMING ON THE CLOUDS and SON OF MAN, etc.
Those were terms that the ancient Jews knew were another distinct person of YHWH.
 
Sissy said:
They got it.
That's why Thomas the disciple could call the Son his Lord and his God.
That's why the writers of the NT could use terminology that was believed on by generations of Jews even before Christ was born.
Terminology such as LOGOS/MEMRA/WORD and COMING ON THE CLOUDS and SON OF MAN, etc.
Those were terms that the ancient Jews knew were another distinct person of YHWH.
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Godliness.
 
Sissy said:
That men of the nation of Israel believed YHWH to be a unity of persons doesn't have squat to do with scripture not belonging to men of any nation.
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No self respecting Jew believed that.

jewsforjudaism.org

God as One vs. The Trinity

Judaism maintains that although certain beliefs may be permissible for non-Jews, they are not acceptable for Jews. Find out what is the truth in this post.
jewsforjudaism.org jewsforjudaism.org

There is no specific doctrinal view of Jesus in traditional Judaism. Monotheism, a belief in the absolute unity and singularity of God, is central to Judaism,[1] which regards the worship of a person as a form of idolatry.[2]
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^^^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
 
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