Cessationism versus Continuationism - The fallacy of "Signs Gifts".

Ol' Barn said:

Good topic

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Thanks.
I went into a fair amount of detail in posts #25 - #29, but there doesn't seem to be any interest in the details.

I've been out of the evangelical church for decades. I guess I don't know what the general view of this is anymore.
Based on the responses here, it seems to still be a joke. (sigh) But what did I expect?

/

Joker said:

But (and that's a big but) there's the problem of how you ensure Quality Control. This lady on another forum came from a Charismatic church background and the "false prophecy of the week" phenomenon messed her up. Okay; maybe we overreacted, maybe the powers-that-be in the church wanted to maintain their fiefdoms, but .... I can still hear Gordon, the QCE from our Scotland factory, grousing in his Scottish burr, "Nobody loves the ******* Quality Engineer!"

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I suppose this question is worth revisiting. "... there's the problem of how you ensure Quality Control." - @Joker

Many (?) Charismatic churches have taken measures to rein things in.

In a previous church we went from an open floor for prophetic messages to a requirement to check in with leadership first. If your message was approved by leadership they gave you a microphone to address the congregation. There was both a positive and negative impact of this policy.

On the one hand, we put an end to the grandma lady that always delivered a sobbing message from God about how sad and disappointed He was with us. On the other hand the spontaneity of prophecy was lost. Was it really a manifestation of the Holy Spirit by the time they handed you a microphone?

The end result was that "prophetic messages" were rare, and frankly didn't seem prophetic at all. Prophetic, meaning directly from God.

I did see an increase in spontaneous worship though. I was playing guitar on the worship team at the time. We actually rehearsed what to do in these situations, which was VERY helpful! And it worked REALLY well. When the congregation reached a high point in response to worship we could continue to support their worship energy by continuing to play an accompaniment.

I had also visited IHOP (the International House Of Prayer in Kansas City. Missouri) to see this is action. They had committed themselves to a 24/7 worship service since September 19, 1999. And the style was spontaneous. The worship leader would oftentimes open a Bible and begin playing and singing. The rest of the team would follow their lead. It was pretty amazing. They also had prophecy teams. You could take a number and wait for your turn. They even had numbered seats in the back of the auditorium. IHOP

Anyway...

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I just remembered a testimony from a missions trip from 45 years ago when I was a young man. I was in England at the time working with a team in the NW of London. (Golders Green, UK) I was on duty to make a meal but I needed some vinegar. The chruch kitchen had none.

I stepped out into the sanctuary to present my need to God. What I heard was, "You won't find it in here." So, I stepped out onto the front steps of the church. There was a woman going along on the sidewalk across the street. She turned to me and asked, "How are you getting along?" To which I replied. "Getting along well, but I need some vinegar." She stopped to clarify what I had just said. ???

She brought me some vinegar and I continued to ruin dinner. (Tea) - LOL

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SteVen said:

I just remembered a testimony from a missions trip from 45 years ago when I was a young man. I was in England at the time working with a team in the NW of London. (Golders Green, UK) I was on duty to make a meal but I needed some vinegar. The chruch kitchen had none.

I stepped out into the sanctuary to present my need to God. What I heard was, "You won't find it in here." So, I stepped out onto the front steps of the church. There was a woman going along on the sidewalk across the street. She turned to me and asked, "How are you getting along?" To which I replied. "Getting along well, but I need some vinegar." She stopped to clarify what I had just said. ???

She brought me some vinegar and I continued to ruin dinner. (Tea) - LOL

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Oh, yeah? Well, I found myself visiting my wife's family in Minsk, Belarus, where they had never even heard of PEANUT BUTTER and had no clue what it was or what it was for. I wanted Tabasco to make my particular version of a Bloody Mary, but they had never heard of it either. We visited a truly gigantic grocery store called ProStore (35 check out lines, all manned by cashiers, and all with 8-10 people in line, not to mention three entire aisles devoted to nothing but sausage). There, in aisle 26, was the Holy Grail: Tabasco! I fell to my knees, thanked God, and wept. No one else liked it, but I was happy.

SteVen said:

I just remembered a testimony from a missions trip from 45 years ago when I was a young man. I was in England at the time working with a team in the NW of London. (Golders Green, UK) I was on duty to make a meal but I needed some vinegar. The chruch kitchen had none.

I stepped out into the sanctuary to present my need to God. What I heard was, "You won't find it in here." So, I stepped out onto the front steps of the church. There was a woman going along on the sidewalk across the street. She turned to me and asked, "How are you getting along?" To which I replied. "Getting along well, but I need some vinegar." She stopped to clarify what I had just said. ???

She brought me some vinegar and I continued to ruin dinner. (Tea) - LOL

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Have you repented of your zealous evangelism-- back in your pre-universalist fire and brimstone mission?

Mr E said:

Have you repented of your zealous evangelism-- back in your pre-universalist fire and brimstone mission?

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I don't really have a problem with evangelism, it's Evangelicalism I'm recovering from.

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SteVen said:

I don't really have a problem with evangelism, it's Evangelicalism I'm recovering from.

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I guess what I’m alluding to is the Christian motivation that inspires “mission” work in order to save souls from the fires of hell. In your early days, wasn’t that your inspiration?

It’s certainly taught in churches, as doing God’s work.

Mr E said:

I guess what I’m alluding to is the Christian motivation that inspires “mission” work in order to save souls from the fires of hell. In your early days, wasn’t that your inspiration?

It’s certainly taught in churches, as doing God’s work.

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Yes. I clearly didn't know any better. I'm doing my own "evangelism" now to undo that mindset.
Fortunately, no one has to believe what I say or face unspeakable consequences. (I hope)

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SteVen said:

I just remembered a testimony from a missions trip from 45 years ago when I was a young man. I was in England at the time working with a team in the NW of London. (Golders Green, UK) I was on duty to make a meal but I needed some vinegar. The chruch kitchen had none.

I stepped out into the sanctuary to present my need to God. What I heard was, "You won't find it in here." So, I stepped out onto the front steps of the church. There was a woman going along on the sidewalk across the street. She turned to me and asked, "How are you getting along?" To which I replied. "Getting along well, but I need some vinegar." She stopped to clarify what I had just said. ???

She brought me some vinegar and I continued to ruin dinner. (Tea) - LOL

]

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What a lovely story.
I was quite the absurdity when I was in Ireland: preferring coffee over tea!
When I left my home shores it was amid people saying: 'you are the ruination of Ireland... what you with your radical notions!'
I still wonder if that 'vinegar' from their mouths was related to me rejecting tea for coffee: or being a leftie who was leaning to Pentecostal/ bapt/ post modern theology expressions!
Either way: I was leaving and out of protest; and yet was followed by pitchforks!
Would love to return and ask for some vinegar!

SteVen said:

Yes. I clearly didn't know any better. I'm doing my own "evangelism" now to undo that mindset.
Fortunately, no one has to believe what I say or face unspeakable consequences. (I hope)

]

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Mr E said:

I guess what I’m alluding to is the Christian motivation that inspires “mission” work in order to save souls from the fires of hell. In your early days, wasn’t that your inspiration?

It’s certainly taught in churches, as doing God’s work.

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Speaking openly and frankly.
I share what I have been given: grace.
Why do I have hope: I share that- and amid life and its adversities. Smile at the void. Love those who are passed by. Care for the un-carable (uncarable should be a word!). Laugh when tears roll. Reaching even to the haughty places where people rely on their own chariots and their own stubborn ideals is worth toiling for.
Everday theology for everyday lived experience.

Mission is reaching out with all that we are- our sum and beyond.

Why mission: why not!

L.B. (2.0) said:

Speaking openly and frankly.
I share what I have been given: grace.
Why do I have hope: I share that- and amid life and its adversities. Smile at the void. Love those who are passed by. Care for the un-carable (uncarable should be a word!). Laugh when tears roll. Reaching even to the haughty places where people rely on their own chariots and their own stubborn ideals is worth toiling for.
Everday theology for everyday lived experience.

Mission is reaching out with all that we are- our sum and beyond.

Why mission: why not!

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Yes, in my interaction with missionaries I don't really sense that "saving people from the fires of hell" is the primary motivation. One of my very best friends in college spent 25 years as a missionary in villages in Tanzania - he wasn't a fire-and-brimstone type AT ALL. My sense of most missionaries is that they principally want to "be an example" and "make a difference." The notion that they are mostly fire-and-brimstone types right out of the Inquisition is a convenient stereotype of the sort that atheists love to promote.

O'Darby III said:

Yes, in my interaction with missionaries I don't really sense that "saving people from the fires of hell" is the primary motivation. One of my very best friends in college spent 25 years as a missionary in villages in Tanzania - he wasn't a fire-and-brimstone type AT ALL. My sense of most missionaries is that they principally want to "be an example" and "make a difference." The notion that they are mostly fire-and-brimstone types right out of the Inquisition is a convenient stereotype of the sort that atheists love to promote.

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You know: the Great Commission is sharing. People have a choice. Yes: no: maybe... along such a continuum.
O'D III, I agree too it is a stereotype promoted by society... yet some live up to it by 'bashing' and getting in the faces of those who do not believe.
We all share in our unique was... seeding, watering: yet it is God who harvests.

Consider these verses:

"After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you." (Luke 10:1-6, NKJV)

We simply invite those along the way... if they be receptive great. If not, well move along and share with another. At times I think just being and openly being Christian in our everyday world of family, work and play is okay.