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Defining the godhead - an open discussion on Unitarianism, Binitarianism and Trinitarianism

@Wrangler
Here's another one.

Philippians 2:5-7 NIV
In your relationships with one another,
have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something
to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

/
 
SteVen said:
Jesus called God, "the Father".

John 5:36 NRSVue
But I have a testimony greater than John’s.
The works that the Father has given me to complete, the very works that I am doing,
testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me.

]
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Remember that what we have as NT scripture, is primarily Greek and Aramaic. When Jesus says Father-- it's Father. When Jesus says God- it's theos.

Is that what he actually said? No-- He spoke of his Father as Abba, or Daddy and we don't know what he said specifically that was translated into God--- but let me ask. If he had been calling his Daddy by a proper Hebrew name-- "Yahweh" would there be any reason for the translators to erase that? Jesus constantly talked about Yahweh?-- a proper name, but the translators changed it? Would any proper Jewish monotheistic religionist-- you know-- the real Christians have allowed that?

No one should be threatened by an honest examination of their beliefs.
 
Mr E said:
Sigh. Do I have to point out who gave us the books of Moses?
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No. Do I have to point out AGAIN that all prophets, by definition, speak for YHWH, and other prophets affirmed what Moses said about the name of the only God of Scripture?
 
Wrangler said:
Because that is what Ex 3:15 says. He may have many titles but only one name. Same as others.
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Moses was right, because Moses says so? It's circular reasoning. But, it's our tradition, so let's just stick with the story just as he gave it.

Can we agree that it's Moses' account that we have, and that we call the books of Moses? And if it was to some degree, a chronological telling-- like a story that started in the beginning with creation, on through the flood, to Abraham, Issac and then Jacob-- and then Jacob's the story of Jacob's 12 sons-- and of one of those son's Joseph who ends up in Egypt--- and then 500 years is skipped and we get to this narrator of that whole story I just summarized-- this Moses, who like the prelude to an epic movie, has been narrating the story thus far, and now in Exodus we get to the main character and his life story....

The name of his God is well established.... it's the name everyone else is going to use going forward... all the prophets and poets, priests and puppeteers-- why? Because that's the name we were given. Everybody uses Moses as the answer key. And Moses said it was Yahweh.

There was this angel I encountered. The angel of Bob. Bob did this and Bob did that. It's always been Bob. Only Bob. And Bob's angel was sent to me and I'm here to tell you that Bob is above all other names... Almighty Bob. In fact, whenever we think of a Supreme Being, I want everyone to call him Bob-- got it?

And everyone did.

Wups. Except Jesus. Jesus said call him Daddy.
 
There's something off about Bob.

Bob, we are told is almighty, yes. Also all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, all-encompassing and all-forgiving.

Except Bob messes up now and then. He makes stuff and it doesn't always work out for him. So he wipes out all life, including all humanity with the exception of 8 people.

He sends folks to war and tells them to spare no one... not even the women and children.

This is Yahweh- Bob almighty. I think it all warrants some reflection.
 
Mr E said:
Remember that what we have as NT scripture, is primarily Greek and Aramaic. When Jesus says Father-- it's Father. When Jesus says God- it's theos.

Is that what he actually said? No-- He spoke of his Father as Abba, or Daddy and we don't know what he said specifically that was translated into God--- but let me ask. If he had been calling his Daddy by a proper Hebrew name-- "Yahweh" would there be any reason for the translators to erase that? Jesus constantly talked about Yahweh?-- a proper name, but the translators changed it? Would any proper Jewish monotheistic religionist-- you know-- the real Christians have allowed that?
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I'm not fully convinced that Jesus spoke of his Father as Abba. What Jesus actually said (in Aramaic or Hebrew) was mostly overheard by people, and eventually written down (in Greek) by someone who may or may not have been an ear-witness -- but let's put the hearsay issue aside for now. A Greek word was chosen by the author to represent what Jesus supposedly said in a different language. Did Jesus ever use "Abba"?

When Mark 14:36 tosses in the Aramaic word Ἀββᾶ in his Greek manuscript (the only Gospel author to record that word) he is relating a conversation that NOBODY overheard. I suspect Mark was influenced by Paul's references in Rom. 8:15 and Gal. 4:6 to the Spirit calling out "Abba" and decided that "Abba" is what Jesus would have said in that circumstance.
 
RedFan said:
I'm not fully convinced that Jesus spoke of his Father as Abba. What Jesus actually said (in Aramaic or Hebrew) was mostly overheard by people, and eventually written down (in Greek) by someone who may or may not have been an ear-witness -- but let's put the hearsay issue aside for now. A Greek word was chosen by the author to represent what Jesus supposedly said in a different language. Did Jesus ever use "Abba"?

When Mark 14:36 tosses in the Aramaic word Ἀββᾶ in his Greek manuscript (the only Gospel author to record that word) he is relating a conversation that NOBODY overheard. I suspect Mark was influenced by Paul's references in Rom. 8:15 and Gal. 4:6 to the Spirit calling out "Abba" and decided that "Abba" is what Jesus would have said in that circumstance.
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It sounds like you are accusing the translators of some degree of sloppiness. Me too.
 
Mr E said:
Is that what he actually said? No-- He spoke of his Father as Abba, or Daddy and we don't know what he said specifically that was translated into God--- but let me ask. If he had been calling his Daddy by a proper Hebrew name-- "Yahweh" would there be any reason for the translators to erase that? Jesus constantly talked about Yahweh?-- a proper name, but the translators changed it? Would any proper Jewish monotheistic religionist-- you know-- the real Christians have allowed that?
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Right.
The NT Greek tells that in this verse the Greek word Πατὴρ (Patēr) is used.

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SteVen said:
The NT Greek tells that in this verse the Greek word Πατὴρ (Patēr) is used.
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I should add that Jesus use of the word Father was significant.
He also called himself the Son of Man. While calling God his Father.

Matthew 9:6 NIV
But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.”
So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

Mark 2:7 NIV
“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

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