Why Christ's Deity is important

[Peter]

I am sorry if this thread offends some people, but I believe it is extremely important to discuss it. Please be civil while doing so.
For salvation, one must believe in Jesus Christ. If Jesus is God, which I intend to prove at some later date, then people who do not believe this are believing in the wrong Jesus. The Jesus that is merely a great God-appointed spiritual teacher.
That is why this subject matters greatly.

 

[shroom]

I am sorry if this thread offends some people, but I believe it is extremely important to discuss it. Please be civil while doing so.
For salvation, one must believe in Jesus Christ. If Jesus is God, which I intend to prove at some later date, then people who do not believe this are believing in the wrong Jesus. The Jesus that is merely a great God-appointed spiritual teacher.
That is why this subject matters greatly.

One must do more than believe in Jesus Christ. Demons believe in Jesus Christ. A person must confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in their heart that >God< raised him from the dead. Jesus didn't raise himself... Jesus is much more than "a great God-appointed spiritual teacher". He is the Christ, the Son of God, God's messiah. His death paid for our sins.

I'm looking forward to seeing your proof that Jesus Christ is God. We'll see if you have anything that has not been presented before.

 

[freelight]

I am sorry if this thread offends some people, but I believe it is extremely important to discuss it. Please be civil while doing so.
For salvation, one must believe in Jesus Christ. If Jesus is God, which I intend to prove at some later date, then people who do not believe this are believing in the wrong Jesus. The Jesus that is merely a great God-appointed spiritual teacher.
That is why this subject matters greatly.

It may or may not matter except to those who care or assume it does. Classic ole Unitarian vs. Trinitarian fare......old hat... going on for many centuries. - while I have no stakes in this race, being way beyond 'orthodox' (ha)...I've usually played with a more 'Unit-arian' view of Christology to keep it simple, also just to get trinitarians to de-compress on the dogmatics a bit (a feat at times)....but its mostly semantics really, as far as 'non-essentials' go, as the basic teachings of Jesus still hold even if he was only one of God's prophets and messiahs....which is true still in the case in most Christologies anyways....recognizing Jesus in his full humanity serving as an AGENT of 'God'. - in this context, 'agency' is most important.

Then you can expound, debate on the humanity and divinity of Jesus in so many ways as in the many different views of 'Christology',...slice and dice Jesus as you please. If anything, you can survey the perfection of both the human and divine elements in Jesus, where they hold value or meaning in whatever context. - one's belief or point of view will vary per their perspective and 'criteria' involved.

Also dont forget the aspect of our own partaking of the divine nature with-in 'Christ' because 'Christ' dwells in us, our spiritual union with the Father and process of transformation 'in Christ' which is essentially 'spiritual' since it is the Spirit that gives life. - the human life of Jesus is our example to follow after as a man anointed by 'God' to serve his will and his kingdom.


-------------o

 

[Sissy]

I am sorry if this thread offends some people, but I believe it is extremely important to discuss it. Please be civil while doing so.

Doesn't offend me.
And I agree it is important.

For salvation, one must believe in Jesus Christ.

True.
And that can only be true if Jesus is God because no one knew of a Jesus born of a virgin until the birth occurred.
In other words, Adam, Noah, Abraham, and all throughout history before the virgin birth did not know the virgin born Jesus.
But they did know of a YHWH that was a plurality.

If Jesus is God, which I intend to prove at some later date, then people who do not believe this are believing in the wrong Jesus. The Jesus that is merely a great God-appointed spiritual teacher.
That is why this subject matters greatly.

Great!
If Jesus was not YHWH manifest in the flesh, then folks are relying on creation instead of the Creator.

 

[Peter]

One must do more than believe in Jesus Christ. Demons believe in Jesus Christ. A person must confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in their heart that >God< raised him from the dead.

That is what I meant.

Jesus is much more than "a great God-appointed spiritual teacher". He is the Christ, the Son of God, God's messiah. His death paid for our sins.

But if he is not God, then he is either a man or an angel (I am excluding the option of him being a demon, which is not really an option). He is not an angel (Heb. 1). Therefore he is (hypothetically) a man. This means that he falls under the generalization in Romans 3 that no one is righteous. Thus, Jesus is not the spotless lamb required for the justification of our sins.

I've usually played with a more 'Unit-arian' view of Christology to keep it simple

What if this subject is not simple? Are you misrepresenting Christology by seeking to make it what it is not? Besides, I hold the view that Trinitarianism makes Christology and Theology Proper much simpler.

 

[shroom]

That is what I meant.

But if he is not God, then he is either a man or an angel (I am excluding the option of him being a demon, which is not really an option). He is not an angel (Heb. 1). Therefore he is (hypothetically) a man.

Not hypothetically... Jesus Christ is a man, as he himself (John 8:40), Peter (Acts 2:22), Paul (Rom 5:15; 1 Tim 2:5) say. There is one God, the Father (1 Cor 8:6) the one Jesus himself said is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

This means that he falls under the generalization in Romans 3 that no one is righteous. Thus, Jesus is not the spotless lamb required for the justification of our sins.

Jesus' Father is God. He did not inherit the sin nature all the rest of us inherit from Adam. Jesus is the "second man", the "last Adam". Jesus was just like Adam was before Adam sinned.

What if this subject is not simple? Are you misrepresenting Christology by seeking to make it what it is not? Besides, I hold the view that Trinitarianism makes Christology and Theology Proper much simpler.

Good luck with freelight. He's a gnostic new-ager who looks for "truth" in almost everyplace BUT the Bible.

 

[Peter]

Not hypothetically... Jesus Christ is a man, as he himself (John 8:40), Peter (Acts 2:22), Paul (Rom 5:15; 1 Tim 2:5) say. There is one God, the Father (1 Cor 8:6) the one Jesus himself said is "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Interesting that you would use these verses to prove that Jesus is a man. What about these verses that explicitly say that Jesus is God?

• John 1:1-18
• 1Timothy 3:16
• Isaiah 40:3
• Isaiah 9:2-7
• Isaiah 7:14
• Isaiah 48:12
• Jeremiah 23:5,6
• Hebrews 1:2,8-12
• Matthew 1:23
• Matthew 12:8
• Acts 10:36
• 2 Corinthians 5:10
• Philippians 2:6
• Colossians 1:15-19
• Colossians 2:9
• Revelation 22:13
• Revelation 1:17

Jesus' Father is God. He did not inherit the sin nature all the rest of us inherit from Adam. Jesus is the "second man", the "last Adam". Jesus was just like Adam was before Adam sinned.

As my former Youth Pastor was fond of saying, Where stands it written?

Good luck with freelight. He's a gnostic new-ager who looks for "truth" in almost everyplace BUT the Bible.

I know, but it's worth a try.

 

[shroom]

Interesting that you would use these verses to prove that Jesus is a man. What about these verses that explicitly say that Jesus is God?

• John 1:1-18
• 1Timothy 3:16
• Isaiah 40:3
• Isaiah 9:2-7
• Isaiah 7:14
• Isaiah 48:12
• Jeremiah 23:5,6
• Hebrews 1:2,8-12
• Matthew 1:23
• Matthew 12:8
• Acts 10:36
• 2 Corinthians 5:10
• Philippians 2:6
• Colossians 1:15-19
• Colossians 2:9
• Revelation 22:13
• Revelation 1:17

Which one of them explicitly states that Jesus is God? There is no verse in the Bible that explicitly states that Jesus Christ is God. There are verses that explicitly state that Jesus Christ is a man, that Jesus Christ HAS a God, that he is a man approved BY God, the man ordained BY God, the man that ascended TO God, the man God MADE both Lord and Christ, the man God GAVE all authority and power, etc.

The Trinity is an inferred doctrine. People hear that God is a Trinity, are taught that God is a Trinity, then go to the Bible looking for verses they say supports that doctrine. IE: the Trinity is read INTO the Bible rather than coming FROM the Bible. All of the verses you listed above can be understood from a Unitarian perspective. For some, it's simply a matter of gaining a correct understanding, and for others it's a translational problem.

As my former Youth Pastor was fond of saying, Where stands it written?

Which part do you need scripture for?

 

[Arial]

It may or may not matter except to those who care or assume it does. Classic ole Unitarian vs. Trinitarian fare......old hat... going on for many centuries. - while I have no stakes in this race, being way beyond 'orthodox' (ha)...I've usually played with a more 'Unit-arian' view of Christology to keep it simple, also just to get trinitarians to de-compress on the dogmatics a bit (a feat at times)....but its mostly semantics really, as far as 'non-essentials' go, as the basic teachings of Jesus still hold even if he was only one of God's prophets and messiahs....which is true still in the case in most Christologies anyways....recognizing Jesus in his full humanity serving as an AGENT of 'God'. - in this context, 'agency' is most important.

Lovely to know that you consider yourself way beyond us poor ignorant sods. It is not in Jesus' teachings where the problem of His deity or not exists as a "problem". It is in who He is and what He did, what His life, and death and resurrection actually accomplished. Not to mention our instruction to worship only God and also being instructed to worship Jesus. If He was just an agent of God, there is nothing unique about Him beyond any other human agent God used to reveal Himself and His will, or to bring judgment. And it would be one of us who saved, not God. And it would all be based on works, our works, not on the person who did those works for us, because we could not, and then died so that His righteousness could be applied to them through faith in HIM to do this.

Also dont forget the aspect of our own partaking of the divine nature with-in 'Christ' because 'Christ' dwells in us, our spiritual union with the Father and process of transformation 'in Christ' which is essentially 'spiritual' since it is the Spirit that gives life. - the human life of Jesus is our example to follow after as a man anointed by 'God' to serve his will and his kingdom.

Who in your opinion is the "us" who the Spirit of Christ indwells?

 

[Peter]

Which one of them explicitly states that Jesus is God? There is no verse in the Bible that explicitly states that Jesus Christ is God.

Try these, and please read them:

• Jeremiah 23:5,6
• Hebrews 1:2,8-12
• Matthew 1:23
• Matthew 12:8
• Acts 10:36
• Philippians 2:6
• Colossians 1:15-19
• Colossians 2:9
• Revelation 22:13
• Revelation 1:17

Which part do you need scripture for?

He did not inherit the sin nature all the rest of us inherit from Adam.

 

[shroom]

Try these, and please read them:

• Jeremiah 23:5,6

Jer 23:
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Calling or giving a name to someone or something does not mean that someone or something IS the name:

Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Is Jerusalem God? (no..) Being called a certain name is often done simply because the object shares some similarity, likeness, connection, or representation of the name it is called.

• Hebrews 1:2,8-12

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This is a translation issue. "By whom also he made the worlds" is "through whom he has given form to the ages". The word translated "worlds" in some versions is "aionion" and it means "ages", not worlds. I'm not going into more specifics, but you can research it if you want.

Heb 1:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

This is too much to explain here, but if you want to read a commentary on it: https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Hebrews/1/8

• Matthew 1:23

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This is similar to the Jeremiah verses above. Giving someone a name does not mean the person IS the name.

• Matthew 12:8

Matt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath. It does not say he is God.

• Acts 10:36

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

It does not say Jesus Christ is God of all. Jesus is the man God MADE both Lord and Christ (Act2 2:36).

• Philippians 2:6

Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

This is a translation issue. Newer translations have "did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (ESV) or similar. Adam grasped at equality with God. Jesus didn't.

• Colossians 1:15-19

Col 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Yes, Jesus is the IMAGE of God, not God.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The things Jesus created, and is still creating, are right there in the verse: "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers". They are positions of leadership within his church. Jesus did not create the heaven and earth, God did (Gen 1:1; Isa 44:24).

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus is before all things in preeminence, not time.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Yes. Those verses do not say that Jesus is God.

• Colossians 2:9

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The fullness of God dwelt in Jesus Christ. It does not say Jesus Christ is God.

• Revelation 22:13
• Revelation 1:17

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Both God and Jesus Christ are referred to as the first and the last. It does not mean they are both God.

Concerning this: "He did not inherit the sin nature all the rest of us inherit from Adam." If Jesus Christ had a sin nature he could not have been the acceptable sacrifice. He himself would have need salvation.

 

[freelight]

Lovely to know that you consider yourself way beyond us poor ignorant sods. It is not in Jesus' teachings where the problem of His deity or not exists as a "problem". It is in who He is and what He did, what His life, and death and resurrection actually accomplished. Not to mention our instruction to worship only God and also being instructed to worship Jesus. If He was just an agent of God, there is nothing unique about Him beyond any other human agent God used to reveal Himself and His will, or to bring judgment. And it would be one of us who saved, not God. And it would all be based on works, our works, not on the person who did those works for us, because we could not, and then died so that His righteousness could be applied to them through faith in HIM to do this.

- 'Agency' still is important as 'God' uses different vessels, anoints them for a special service. - by recognizing God anoints other souls, does not diminish Jesus role or place as 'Savior', but there are many ways to view Jesus and what role/office he has played or plays. I see a Unit-arian view as recognizing Jesus role as 'Savior' just as well as a Trinitarian view does, for I dont see the 'differential' as affecting his 'agency' in any way; (that he HAS TO BE 'GOD' somehow to ensure or effect his agency as Savior). So, much of the Arian controversy and whole 'unitarian/trinitarian' debate of the first 4 centuries was mostly semantics and politics within the cultural-matrix of the time, with a 'church-state' and her 'pontifs' manipulating a place within the power structure (Roman government, etc.) - the winners in the courts got to make their 'Christological theology' orthodox. - the Arians at times held the ascendency, but eventually 'trinitarianism' won out, that doesnt necessarily give credence that its any better a 'Christology' or 'theology',....since Jesus role as 'Savior' and 'Lord' is still honored just as well in Unitarianism.

My view is an informed one based on my own studies, observation and opinion formed from such, and like any other viewpoint is subject to change if/when better or more accurate information comes to the fore.

Who in your opinion is the "us" who the Spirit of Christ indwells?

I speak from the view as a son of God, a member of Christs body.....a tabernacle where 'God' dwells,...so I can speak from that spiritual point of view, as what is 'spiritual' is spiritually discerned. My 'inclusion' of souls who make up Christ's body is not limited to Paul's terms or parameters, but his language suffices because he spoke from the more spiritual gnostic perspective of a mystery school, his 'gospel' being a syncretic blend of various elements/traditions.

Now we can discuss & debate over who has the 'spirit of Christ' or any 'spirit' of 'breath/essence' of 'God' within them (to universalize or distinguish between kinds of 'spirits'), as in something that may be innate in most all souls by natural birth (incarnation) and/or by spiritual birth (rebirth, regeneration) but that could take pages. I of course speak more from the enlightened or regenerated point of view, as 'us' being those recognzing the 'Christ' and the spirit of 'God' being awakened to that degree on the spiritual path where 'sonship' is recognized. All are the 'offspring' of 'God' originally, and may receive further 'rebirth' and 'regeneration' in the process of a souls progress and evolution, so we have variation in such perspectives.


------------o